Wind Generation and the Electricity Grid

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RAM I asked you to back up your claim with figures.
And the US nuclear plants have not closed on pure economic grounds but because of a fanatical anti-nuclear campaign predominantly funded by gas and renewables generators.
So some figures to prove me wrong please.
 
RAM I asked you to back up your claim with figures.
And the US nuclear plants have not closed on pure economic grounds but because of a fanatical anti-nuclear campaign predominantly funded by gas and renewables generators.
So some figures to prove me wrong please.
Dear drron - you are currently behind in answering questions by 52 by my count.

I DID post the links to the nuclear plant closures for you - did you forget? Like your post on Bill Gates investing $40 billion in Chinese nuclear plants?

Do you remember that one?

Here's some more real FACTS for you - seems closing this nuclear plant would save customers more than $135m but the utility wanted the State to pay over $170m - the State Govt refused and the utility will not close 4 years early after all. The article then goes on to mention the subsidies required to keep other plants open due to their inability to compete on price.

WARNING - "S" word used, 'subsidy' that is.

Entergy to keep Palisades nuke open until 2022 after PSC decision


Illinois and New York approved subsidies to nuclear generators last year aiming to preserve their carbon-free generation and jobs. Operators are currently pushing for similar supports in Pennsylvania and Connecticut, threatening to shut down plants in those states if supports are not approved.

Enough links for you yet? Or is the sky still falling drron?
 
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OK RAM it is obvious you have no real facts.Sure Bill Gates has only invested $1 billion in Terrapower but it has entered into a $40 billion MOU with the Chinese to develop nuclear power stations-
TerraPower, CNNC team up on travelling wave reactor
The Chinese are planning 400 nuclear power units by mid century-
Bill Gates Making Progress On Next Generation Of Nuclear Power -- In China

Now as to nuclear being uneconomic v wind in the USA.As I have been saying it is not a level playing field.Subsidies my dear man-
37148457420_cfa6c33ac9.jpg
.
Those are US EIA figures.
Now to waste-
36678718704_bc8513cae5.jpg
.
Those are figures for toxic waste.With the nuclear waste it will eventually be of no concern but with solar it includes heavy metals which remain toxic forever and do leach into water tables.
Then to total resources used for a common power output-
37357480402_bb31a2b208.jpg
.
Look at all that steel,cement and concrete needed compared to nuclear.By the way aren't they major sources of CO2 emissions>?
Why yes.So nuclear is the cleanest energy in respect to CO2 emissions.
And as to the closed nuclear power stations.Well California CO2 emissions have risen significantly since the closure of San Onofre and will rise even further if Diablo closes.
And here is a different story on the forced stoppage of the South Carolina nuclear reactor-
Wind Energy Still More Expensive Than Nuclear Reactors Halted for Cost Overruns

On average, the 60-year life-cycle cost would be $74 per MWh — about what wind power in South Carolina would cost, according to the Energy Information Agency — and that’s without counting the high cost of wind’s integration onto a grid, whether through storage or back-up power. And though this cost is similar to projections for the cost of solar PV in South Carolina, if scaled to the output of the Summer reactors, solar would rapidly lose its carbon reduction capabilities due to the high amount of existing clean energy production in the state.
And then there is of course Germany shutting down it's nuclear power.Unfortunately most replaced by coal power so causing a rise in their CO2 emissions.
And for a final statement which was the only source of power to keep operating during the hurricanes in Texas and Florida.I'll leave that to you to guess.
 
Remember the point of the forum is to promote discussion but that discussion can only progress if people answer each other.

This debate is IMHO going around in circles with both sides not answering questions put up by the other. Personally I cannot see any further point in this discussion as it is currently progressing. Re-asking the same question multiple times achieves nothing. You need to either accept that you are not going to get an answer and move on or understand why there is no answer forthcoming.
 
Remember the point of the forum is to promote discussion but that discussion can only progress if people answer each other.

This debate is IMHO going around in circles with both sides not answering questions put up by the other. Personally I cannot see any further point in this discussion as it is currently progressing. Re-asking the same question multiple times achieves nothing. You need to either accept that you are not going to get an answer and move on or understand why there is no answer forthcoming.

Perhaps if a poster refuses to respond about their posts which have proven to be false - then they could be warned 'officially' that they will be banned unless they stick to posting verifiably true material?
 
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Perhaps if a poster refuses to respond about their posts which have proven to be false - then they could be warned 'officially' that they will be banned unless they stick to posting verifiably true material?
I'm so sorry you feel that way RAM but my last post answers your allegations.
You have yet to answer my questions so it is obvious that it is,as Straitman says,pointless to argue with you.I will continue to post links that demonstrate the folly of the failed technology of wind power but I will not respond to your jibes.
 
OK RAM it is obvious you have no real facts.Sure Bill Gates has only invested $1 billion in Terrapower but it has entered into a $40 billion MOU with the Chinese to develop nuclear power stations-
TerraPower, CNNC team up on travelling wave reactor
Bill Gates has not invested $1bn in Terrapower = FACT. Please disprove this. The article you cite does not backup any of your claims.
Bill Gates HAS NOT INVESTED $1bn in TerraPower, nor the $40 billion you claimed earlier he invested in Chinese Nuclear projects.
FAKE news.
2017 10 01 TerraPower Bill gates tens of millions.jpg
The Chinese are planning 400 nuclear power units by mid century-
Bill Gates Making Progress On Next Generation Of Nuclear Power -- In China
Meanwhile as of 30 June 2017 - Terrapower 'hopes' to have a demonstration reactor within the next decade.

Terrapower has not been named by the Chinese authorities as the supplier for even one nuclear plant. Perhaps as Terrapower does not even have the design currently for a prototype.

The Chinese have not entered into a $40 billion MOU with Terrapower as you claim this version. The above article you cite does not backup any of your claims.

If I am wrong - please provide a link to ANY statement by TerraPower that cites either:
  1. Bill gates has ever invested $1bn in TerraPower.
  2. The Chinese signed a MOU for $40bn with TerraPower.
Here is their web site to help you... About TerraPower

Until then, FAKE news.

Now as to nuclear being uneconomic v wind in the USA.As I have been saying it is not a level playing field.Subsidies my dear man-
37148457420_cfa6c33ac9.jpg
.
Those are US EIA figures.

Sorry about that chief - I did not realise "Tax Credits" could not be counted as subsidies - definitions and all.

H.R. 1551 – Modifying Advanced Nuclear Power Tax Credit

The articles I have previously provided state that DESPITE the US FEderal Govt providing billions in subsidies to the two plants in construction that have now been abandoned - they would never be economical vs Gas, solar, hydro, PV. EVER. Those included figures provided by the companies developing the projects themselves. Nice try showing a graph that has nothing to do with the two projects that have been scrapped despite around $20 billion in sunk costs (including Fed and State Govt subsidies and above-market PPAs.

These subsidies cannot be graphed as they are an infinite subsidy per watt hour generated - since the projects have and will never generate a single watt second let alone mega watt hours.

Separating subsidy paid per mega watt hour generated from subsidies paid for construction is not an apples with apples comparison. Misleading even.

Now to waste-
36678718704_bc8513cae5.jpg
.
Those are figures for toxic waste.With the nuclear waste it will eventually be of no concern but with solar it includes heavy metals which remain toxic forever and do leach into water tables.

Solar panels can be recycled (and are) so that there is no heavy metal waste dumped in the environment. BTW have you researched the negative by-products from uranium mining?

Conventional uranium ore treatment mills create radioactive waste in the form of tailings, which contain uranium, radium, and polonium. Consequently, uranium mining results in "the unavoidable radioactive contamination of the environment by solid, liquid and gaseous wastes".

Many of these effects are similar to those encountered in other types of mining, although there are some unique risks posed by uranium mining and processing due to the presence of radioactive substances, and co-occurring chemicals such as heavy metals.

Ranger mine's uranium spill revealed to be Rio Tinto's second in a week
www.smh.com.au › News › National
Dec 11, 2013 - The chemical spill at Ranger Uranium Mine last weekend was the second such incident in a week for the mine's parent company, Rio Tinto, ...

Ranger Uranium Mine - Wikipedia
Ranger Uranium Mine - Wikipedia
The Ranger Uranium Mine is a uranium mine in the Northern Territory of Australia. .... More recently, the ARRAC report from 2002 details a major leak of about 2 megalitres of potentially polluted water, over a number of months. In 2007, water ...

Rio Tinto refuses guarantee to cover reclamation cost of Ranger mine
Rio Tinto chief executive Sam Walsh has refused to guarantee that his company will cover the cost of rehabilitating the Ranger uranium mine near Kakadu, building on uncertainty that was created last month by the Rio subsidiary in charge of the mine.
Energy Resources of Australia - which is 68 per cent owned by Rio - raised eyebrows when it revealed it may need to find new sources of money to meet its rehabilitation commitments for Ranger, which is entirely surrounded by Kakadu National Park. Under the Ranger permit, ERA must have rehabilitated the site by 2026, and a review of the rehabilitation strategy in 2013 found the cost would be A$ 603 million on a net present cost basis. ERA has A$ 357 million on hand and has ceased mining at Ranger, with the company now exploring for more uranium underground in a bid to find future revenue streams.

Then to total resources used for a common power output-
37357480402_bb31a2b208.jpg

]Look at all that steel,cement and concrete needed compared to nuclear.By the way aren't they major sources of CO2 emissions>?
Why yes.So nuclear is the cleanest energy in respect to CO2 emissions.
And as to the closed nuclear power stations.Well California CO2 emissions have risen significantly since the closure of San Onofre and will rise even further if Diablo closes.
Please provide the link in a readable size so i can have a look into what assumptions have been used.
And here is a different story on the forced stoppage of the South Carolina nuclear reactor-
Wind Energy Still More Expensive Than Nuclear Reactors Halted for Cost Overruns
Curious article by the Nuclear industry funded organisation interestingly called "Environmental Progress" who's aim is to promote the use of nuclear power.

I did like, however this admission that disregarding the billions already spent, based on the current expected cost to finish...

"Bottom line though? Finishing the reactors would be more expensive than building new gas-fired power plants"

I prefer articles provided by outlets not funded by vested interest groups - or perhaps the nuclear companies themselves (links previously provided) that stated their projects were not financially viable unless provided even more subsidies.

Following the links to its supposed 'supporting' pieces actually came up with such gems as:
  • After countless years of delays and billions in cost over-runs workers had been expecting them to be abandoned but still it comes as a shock when the day finally comes.
  • The first nuclear reactors to be built in the US in decades have been abandoned due to their inability to compete against other generation sources despite the massive payments received by the projects to date.
  • Either company could potentially get the one-third-finished reactors for pennies on the dollar
So the projects are running years over projected completion dates and are JUST one-third finished and bankrupted one of the top three Nuclear reactor builders in the world and then went on to effectively bankrupt one of the remaining top two.

Certainly says much about what a great business Nuclear reactors are.

And then there is of course Germany shutting down it's nuclear power.Unfortunately most replaced by coal power so causing a rise in their CO2 emissions.
And for a final statement which was the only source of power to keep operating during the hurricanes in Texas and Florida.I'll leave that to you to guess.
"Hurricane Irma also affected Florida’s two nuclear power plants, which are among the largest power plants in the state. One reactor at the Turkey Point nuclear power plant in south Florida was shut down as a precaution before the hurricane arrived. The other nuclear reactor at the plant was later shut down because of a mechanical issue." Source EIA

The Florida nuclear reactors took until Sept 18 (15 days) to return to full production - source EIA.
So much FAKE news.[
 
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Meanwhile, the SA government and Elon Musk have signed off on the 100MW battery. The 100 days countdown is well on.

US-based Tesla, best known for its cutting edge electric vehicles, will operate the massive battery on behalf of French wind farm developer Neoen at an estimated cost of $50 million to the SA government.


But the government only pays if Musk can deliver the project on time.

"The interconnection agreement has been approved by Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) and has just been signed," Tesla said in a statement.

Elon Musk: Tesla Kicks Off 100-Day Battery Countdown
 
We can all do our bit to do with electricity consumption provided we have a bit of money to implement changes at home and work. Don't just think it is someone else's problem.
 
Interesting charts showing total actual production, not capacity installed, in China, India and Brazil by nuclear, wind and solar.

2017 10 01 Renewable power generated China India Brazil.jpg
 
Remember when John Howard sold off our natural gas for a pittance?

I was in the Canberra press gallery in 2002 when prime minister John Howard called a press conference to announce, with the widest grin he could manage, that after years of negotiation, Australia's mining interests had pulled off a $25 billion deal to supply China with liquefied natural gas.

By 2015, it was being called the worst deal ever done. The Chinese by then were paying about one-third the price for Australian gas that Australian consumers themselves had to pay ... and they were guaranteed to continue doing so.The Chinese had got the deal of a lifetime because the consortium of Australia's North West Shelf operators hadn't thought to insert a clause into the contract that would raise the price of gas from what was, in 2002, a historically low level.

"I would never encourage the idea that governments should negotiate LNG prices," he said. "At no stage was the Australian government directly involved in pricing issues in relation to the $25 billion contract."A few months later, in the dying days of his government, Howard was back in China to witness the signing of a new, $35 billion liquid natural gas deal. The Chinese were so thrilled they made a gift of two giant pandas to Adelaide's zoo.

How Australia blew its future gas supplies
 
Remember when John Howard sold off our natural gas for a pittance?







How Australia blew its future gas supplies
Yes, all the glad handing for the 30 year contracts to Korea for a fraction of the then domestic gas price - but it had an IRR of 18% so who cares said the consultants (a well known investment bank...). Now the price is 1/10th of a fraction of the domestic gas price.

Good interview on ABC the other day when the reporter actually asked a sensible question to the head of the gas lobby body - turns out the 'agreement' to supply more gas domestically is for the uncontracted gas they intended to sell on the spot market and the price for Australia will be at a HIGHER cost than for international buyers as their price included the cost of refrigerating it (making LNG) and the transport costs.

Aust domestic sales just get the supply bypassing the process trains - so their profits are higher on the same volume sold aka Aust domestic buyers price effectively 130 to 145% higher
 
Elon Musk clams he can rebuild Puerto Rico's electrical grid with renewables and batteries.

After Puerto Rico was hit by two hurricanes back to back in just a few weeks, along with other islands in the Caribbean, most of their power grid was completely destroyed. Tesla quickly started quietly shipping Powerwalls there to try to get power back on to some houses with solar arrays.

Now CEO Elon Musk says that Tesla could rebuild Puerto Rico’s power grid with batteries and solar on a bigger scale.

Puerto Rico’s electricity rates were already quite high at around $0.20 per kWh and reliant on fossil fuels.

Elon Musk says Tesla could rebuild Puerto Rico’s power grid with batteries and solar
 
Some nice pictures of the solar and wind farms on Puerto Rico after the hurricanes in that link.
 
Some nice pictures of the solar and wind farms on Puerto Rico after the hurricanes in that link.

Yes - always depressing to see infrastructure in tatters. Though you would have to agree that it is not quite as chilling as watching the explosions at Fukushima. And if that didn't make your eyes water, then the $188 billion (USD) cost of this nuclear disaster will.
 
Yes - always depressing to see infrastructure in tatters. Though you would have to agree that it is not quite as chilling as watching the explosions at Fukushima. And if that didn't make your eyes water, then the $188 billion (USD) cost of this nuclear disaster will.
Hopefully the federal government directs more money for renewables and not loan the Adani corporation a billion dollars to potentially cause so much environmental damage.
 
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