Why QF points are worthless (multicity booking rant)

[trippin_the_rift]

The last time I did an F redemption the 'taxes' were as much as an entire Y fare would have been. So the excessive 'taxes' are not limited to Y redemptions.

Routing somewhere like HKG is good for taxes because the government regulates what can be charged to passengers.
I redeemed recently 2x pax to HKG for $360 AUD in taxes.

If you find yourself wanting to use points mainly for AU-EU redemptions you might not be with the right FF program on the burn side.

Another option is - cash your points out for gift cards, buy the flights (and earn a few points/sc). Next time - check for availability, then buy miles on the program that can get you those seats.

Gone are the days of saving up for years and cashing in on a biz/first AU-LHR. The sheer number of new members and volume of points being created by QF and partner airlines is outpacing available award inventory.... and it's only getting worse.

 

[Ric]

Routing somewhere like HKG is good for taxes because the government regulates what can be charged to passengers.
I redeemed recently 2x pax to HKG for $360 AUD in taxes.

If you find yourself wanting to use points mainly for AU-EU redemptions you might not be with the right FF program on the burn side.

Another option is - cash your points out for gift cards, buy the flights (and earn a few points/sc). Next time - check for availability, then buy miles on the program that can get you those seats.

Gone are the days of saving up for years and cashing in on a biz/first AU-LHR. The sheer number of new members and volume of points being created by QF and partner airlines is outpacing available award inventory.... and it's only getting worse.

I take it that it is Oz to Hkg and it is Hkg government's regulation on what can be charged?
So it would be cheaper tax-wise, to redeem to other destinations ex Hkg using QF and other Oneworld partners?

 

[medhead]

Gone are the days of saving up for years and cashing in on a biz/first AU-LHR. The sheer number of new members and volume of points being created by QF and partner airlines is outpacing available award inventory.... and it's only getting worse.

My discussions with Anna over the years gave me the impression that she does not save up points for years.

 

[Anna]

Thank you to those who are trying to be helpful

The idea of having to go through HKG to get value from FF points when I don't want to go to HKG reminds me of the old joke about the farmer who is asked by tourists for directions to a town. Farmer says "you don't want to start from here to get to there".

And the AFF/QFFP twist on that is "oh and you don't want to go in that old Camry you're driving, you're better off going in a Mercedes or even a Rolls"

 

[Ghostdunks]

The last time I did an F redemption the 'taxes' were as much as an entire Y fare would have been. So the excessive 'taxes' are not limited to Y redemptions.

I don't think this invalidates the notion that Y-class redemptions don't offer great value(sorry about the double/triple negative). From my experience, whether redeeming Y, J or F class fares with points, the "taxes/co-payment" portion is around the same(or the difference is negligible) regardless of class. So when given the following choices when redeeming an award seat:

1) Pay taxes which is equivalent to the cost of a normal Y fare, and get a Y fare
2) Pay taxes which is equivalent to the cost of a normal Y fare, and get a J or F fare

I know I'll almost always pick option 2 as to me, that gives me much more value, assuming I have enough points to cover the requirement for the J/F fare. At least that way I get the J/F experience. I look at the taxes portion of the reward seat as the minimum amount I need to pay to get into the game, and which class I end up in is dependent on the amount of points I spend. Because of this, I then see Y as poor value, J/F as better value as J/F is only double or triple the amount required for Y, yet the resulting experience is worth more than that, to me anyway.

 

[JohnK]

It's not ludicrous when people either pay those fees or hoard points in hope of... something.

Round the world awards with ludicrous taxes?

We should just use the points to go to LAX in first for a weekend burger run. Or better still buy a toaster.

 

[jgm]

So when given the following choices when redeeming an award seat:

1) Pay taxes which is equivalent to the cost of a normal Y fare, and get a Y fare
2) Pay taxes which is equivalent to the cost of a normal Y fare, and get a J or F fare

Or redeem with a DECENT FF scheme & only pay minimal taxes (not the cost of a normal Y fare), & get a Y, J or F seat!

 

[serfty]

Or redeem with a DECENT FF scheme & only pay minimal taxes (not the cost of a normal Y fare), & get a Y, J or F seat!

A bit tough when you have 6 figures of QFF points.

Of course, other programs can be cheaper. This week I redeemed MEL-(QF)-xDXB-(QF)-LHR,AMS-(BA)-xLHR-(BA)-xHKG-(QF)-MEL with AAdvantage, 120K Miles and USD360 ($190 is BA YQ).

120K AA miles can currently be purchased (until Jan 4) for USD2567.

The same routing on Qantas will set you back 267K +++

 

[dajop]

It's not just the fuel surcharges that are the problem. It's also availability. I often happily pay almost the same surcharge for SQ awards in economy when economy fares are expensive. For example $450 in surcharges+ 42000 pts for SIN-MEL return, when commercial fares are $1400. But on QF when fares are that expensive awards are almost never available when I want to travel (or if in the rare instances that they are, it is via BNE which adds 4+ hrs and more surcharges to the trip, no thanks) whereas on SQ they are available either directly or via waitlist.

 

[incumbent]

We should just use the points to go to LAX in first for a weekend burger run. Or better still buy a toaster.

Probably a good call staying away from the burgers.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I want to travel ADL - SIN - ZRH return in April, spending 3-4 days in SIN on the outward journey. To book this with QF online, I have to use the multicity booking tool.

Ideally I would like to use points for classic awards for the ADL - SIN and SIN - ADL legs. Flights are available for the dates I want, transiting either MEL or SYD (the need to transit is a rant in itself but I won't go there today).

The multicity booking tool won't let me do a mixed classic reward/cash booking, it's all or nothing.

If I use 60,000 points for ADL - SIN return I have to pay AUD500 in "taxes". The cash price to continue the journey with QF codes SIN - ZRH return via DXB is coming up as SGD 1359 or so. Total price is thus around AUD 1850.

The cash price for ADL - SIN - ZRH return for the dates I want is coming up as AUD 1888 in Y (transiting DXB), for a saver fare where you can't get points upgrades on the QF metal. Flexible fare is AUD 3278.

So I can use my points and pay about $1800 for the trip, or not use my points and still pay about $1800 for the trip - plus not be eligible for points upgrades on the QF metal using the points I've saved on the fare.

Honestly I cannot see any value in having the frequent flyer points when the fare is going to be the same whether I use them or not.

Side rant - the multicity booking tool is clunky and user unfriendly - it's not easy to remove ADL - SIN as the first leg and SIN - ADL as the last leg and get a new price. I have to enter all the flights in again to get only the SIN - ZRH return price. Why can't it just delete the first leg and all the other legs change numbering accordingly?

I didn't even try to look at a mixed-class booking. I know that is way beyond the QF IT work experience kids. Luckily all sectors would be around 7 hours.

Thank you to those who are trying to be helpful

The idea of having to go through HKG to get value from FF points when I don't want to go to HKG reminds me of the old joke about the farmer who is asked by tourists for directions to a town. Farmer says "you don't want to start from here to get to there".

And the AFF/QFFP twist on that is "oh and you don't want to go in that old Camry you're driving, you're better off going in a Mercedes or even a Rolls"

Travel is a personal thing and what's right for one person isn't nesessarily right for another. There was another thread recently where someone was as vehemently against going via DXB as you are to going via HKG.

I wasn't suggesting you had to overnight in HKG, only transit, however you didn't want to stopover in DXB yet you would still be going via DXB to get to ZRH. The reason why I mentioned J class awards on CX is you mentioned the notion of mixed class fares which indicated that you didn't want to just travel in economy class and also the cheaper fare via DXB wasn't eligible for points upgrades.

Travelling via DXB and wanting a stopover in SIN on the way limits you to using QF points MEL or SYD to SIN and/or DXB to SYD or MEL provided the fare is upgradeable but you mentioned the fare that permitted upgrades was AUD3,278.00.

My point was that rather than risk the upgrade lottery you could actually get a J seat guaranteed with a Classic Award on CX ex HKG with very low taxes so your actual cash outlay would be less than travelling 100% of the way in whY.

The other bug bear you mentioned was having to transit in SYD or MEL however you can eliminate that if you fly homeward bound ZRH/xHKG/ADL as CX offer non-stop flights HKG/ADL plus being a QF WP you'd get the choice of several lounges to use in HKG like The Pier, The Wing or QF Lounge.

 

[timster]

The idea of having to go through HKG to get value from FF points when I don't want to go to HKG reminds me of the old joke about the farmer who is asked by tourists for directions to a town. Farmer says "you don't want to start from here to get to there".

I always used to think flying to Europe via HKG was "going the long way". That was until I actually looked more closely at the route, and visited HKG to appreciate its attractions as a stopover (greatly exceeding SIN's IMHO).

According to the Great Circle Mapper, there is less than 300 miles difference between ADL-SIN-ZRH and ADL-HKG-ZRH ...
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=adl-sin-zrh
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=adl-hkg-zrh

On your other point, I agree that the multi-city booking tool is bad. Why is it that this tool seems to be almost universally dismal across all airlines ?

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I always used to think flying to Europe via HKG was "going the long way". That was until I actually looked more closely at the route, and visited HKG to appreciate its attractions as a stopover (greatly exceeding SIN's IMHO).

According to the Great Circle Mapper, there is less than 300 miles difference between ADL-SIN-ZRH and ADL-HKG-ZRH ...
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=adl-sin-zrh
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=adl-hkg-zrh

Except that the OP was looking at travelling ADL/xMEL or SYD/xSIN/xDXB/ZRH.

Going outbound via SYD or MEL would be okay as you can do an F Lounge visit however flying non-stop HKG/ADL would appeal to some as it avoids a domestic transfer after an overnight flight from Asia.

Interestingly enough using the ITA/Matrix tool for a fare search in April ZRH/ADL one way CX was the cheapest at AUD1,288.00 possibly because you have a full day transit in HKG.

 

[timster]

Except that the OP was looking at travelling ADL/xMEL or SYD/xSIN/xDXB/ZRH.

Oh ... well that's even longer ...
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=adl-mel-sin-dxb-zrh

 

[Anna]

I feel like an AFF traitor but I think I might use the points for "points plus pay" on the Y saver booking because that knocks about $500 off the price. Which is the sort of rebate I was hoping to achieve using some points on that particular routing (the routing isn't my choice but is being imposed on me by someone else).

Yes, I am doing this with my eyes open and I know there are other uses for points that are potentially economically more valuable but as Oz said, travel is a personal decision And I am grateful for the helpful suggestions.

PS I can book the direct DXB - ADL sector on the return journey.

 

[medhead]

As I've mentioned somewhere - points plus pay can be cheaper than Classic awards, but they also earn points and SC. But don't tell Qantas since this nullifies their main reason for removing a certain category of awards.

 

[JohnK]

I was going to book an economy award KUL-(3K)-SIN-(EK)-BNE for 28,000 QFF points and ~SGD140 and then SYD-(QF)-SIN-(3K)-KUL for 28,000 QFF points and ~AUD165

There is now a sale ex-SIN where I could get SIN-BNE//SYD-SIN for SGD592. This routing earns me 10,400 QFF points and 60 SCs. Even though SCs not needed this membership year when I use points + pay if I use 66,400 QFF points the cost is ~SGD105 and KUL-SIN return with golf clubs and max bundle is ~AUD125 and earns another 1,600 QFF points and 20 SCs.

The optimum mix would appear to be 52,000 QFF points + SGD210 + ~AUD125 for KUL-SIN. The 80 SCs earned may also get me over the line and earn another loyalty bonus.

In essence I am getting same award for 16,000 QFF points discount?

 

[trooper]

Interesting routing idea, thanks, but having to fly to somewhere I don't want to go (HKG) to be able to get decent usage out of the points underlines why I think the points are useless.

The points are useless if I can't use them advantageously for what I want to use them for. The fact that there might be other possible uses for the points is irrelevant.

Other than proving they have uses... and are therefore NOT "useless"?

Sorry... I DO understand your frustration..... but for miles or points to be able to be used for what "I want to use them for"? All the time? For everybody?

 

[Virgin Bart]

Other than proving they have uses... and are therefore NOT "useless"?

Sorry... I DO understand your frustration..... but for miles or points to be able to be used for what "I want to use them for"? All the time? For everybody?

You must be an engineer to pick that up... (And so am I...)

 

[RichardMEL]

I feel like an AFF traitor but I think I might use the points for "points plus pay" on the Y saver booking because that knocks about $500 off the price. Which is the sort of rebate I was hoping to achieve using some points on that particular routing (the routing isn't my choice but is being imposed on me by someone else).

Yes, I am doing this with my eyes open and I know there are other uses for points that are potentially economically more valuable but as Oz said, travel is a personal decision And I am grateful for the helpful suggestions.

PS I can book the direct DXB - ADL sector on the return journey.

I see no reason why you're a "traitor" for using P+P - sure, many examples show it is generally a poor use of points, but some also have provided examples where it has actually made sense - mostly in Y as I recall..

but that aside you don't have to justify any value decision YOU make to anyone except yourself. If whatever you use your points for - toasters, P+P, upgrades J->F or a QR booking that may get cancelled due to lack of ticketingD ) - it's totally up to you and only you can decide on the value to you.

I do understand your point though. I guess the problem, more generally, is that everyone sees different uses and value in points (be it QFF or any other pgoream). Half the time we can't do what we want due to lack of availability, or routing rules, or even perhaps the "price" being way too high. All of these are factors.

It's coughpy when we can't use the points for what we'd like to - for some of us that's a big issue, and for others it's never one that crops up for any number of reasons. Probably why QFF find so many ways for punters to burn them - many of low value to most of us (eg: toasters, voolies vouchers etc) but for others it could be perfect. Everyone has a different situation, goals and thoughts.

At the end of the day, it's our choice