Western Sydney Airport (WSI) Discussion

[elanshin]

It can never be as good as SYD based on the fact unlike SYD it is absolutely no where near Sydney proper.

I am hopeful that premium services which have F and J, and the most profitable golden triangle flights will remain at SYD; as if you visiting Sydney you will want to have fast and convenient transport to Sydney, not be trying to navigate from the very outer fringe of the outermost burbs.

A Taxi from WSI to the city at peak time could easily hit $200; and there is no door to door train service from the city, its 1-2 trains plus a switch to metro and over an hours assuming all connections are seamless which never happens on the Sydney Train network. Noting our 2 story trains are set up to accomodate luggage - no racks or storage areas.



Maybe for freight but the location alone makes this ambition unrealistic for passenger travel.

I agree that WSI isn't built to replace SYD and as time goes on, we'll see SYD end up more like HND. Slot restricted and premium for international carriers and heavy domestic, but WSI compliment with the growth of the city.

For where I currently stay in sydney WSI won't be the airport for me but I definitely have a whole bunchof friends that WSI would be significantly closer for them to drive to.

I also feel that the low hanging fruit is still there if the government connects the leppington line into WSI and suddenly you have direct WSI to SW Sydney to SYD transfer as well as the CBD. It just won't be there on day 1.

 

[SYD]

I agree that WSI isn't built to replace SYD and as time goes on, we'll see SYD end up more like HND. Slot restricted and premium for international carriers and heavy domestic, but WSI compliment with the growth of the city.

For where I currently stay in sydney WSI won't be the airport for me but I definitely have a whole bunchof friends that WSI would be significantly closer for them to drive to.

I also feel that the low hanging fruit is still there if the government connects the leppington line into WSI and suddenly you have direct WSI to SW Sydney to SYD transfer as well as the CBD. It just won't be there on day 1.

It was a massive failure to not plan for the current airport train to continue on to the now WSI and v.v. Conspiracy theorist would have us believe that the SYD operators did a deal but I suspect it was just a lack of for sight and commitment.

At least the current metro plans will allow good feed into/out of WSI for the public and industry out that way.

None of us have any idea what things will look like in 30-40 years time. WSI is being built for the future. Governments get canned for not thinking of the future so I’m pleased they have been proactive. The beauty is they have the land and can build for needs as the City and infrastructure grows. SYD has no room to grow so is contained to the dump of an airport it currently is.

Hopefully some variation of QFs idea to consolidate OW and partner* ops over at the current T2/3 and others at T1 could improve the overall functionality of an International airport. We certainly don’t want to see a DC scenario where DCA becomes basically domestic only (some regional flights) and IAD takes all the long haul. The metro all the way to Dulles only opened last year ie 60 years after it first opened!

*the VA / QR tie up throws a spanner in the works but QR could stay put.

 

[Lynda2475]

SYD could easily be future proofed by removing the curfew (noone currently living under the flight paths can claim they didnt know SYD was there, and newer planes are quieter) and adding a floating runway out into Botany Bay ala Hong Kong.

I do not think they should have been allowed to put the word Sydney in the name, as it's ridiculously misleading.

SYD is easy to get to/from and close to major tourist hot spots and much much closer to the 4 main business centres than WSI.

 

[justinbrett]

None of us have any idea what things will look like in 30-40 years time. WSI is being built for the future. Governments get canned for not thinking of the future so I’m pleased they have been proactive. The beauty is they have the land and can build for needs as the City and infrastructure grows. SYD has no room to grow so is contained to the dump of an airport it currently is.

We don’t, but you just need to look at other cities with smaller legacy airports near the city centre, and new geeenfield airports in the outskirts.

In most cases it’s the closer legacy airport that remains the more popular airport, and governments have only made a success of the new airports by regulation (eg max route distance like LGA), slot restrictions or increased fees. Not really a win for the passenger when the outcome is forced on them against their wishes.

But for all your accolades for the government, I agree with @SYD it was a massive fail not to include heavy rail at the airport with direct services to the CBD. That could singlehandedly be the death knell in any hopes of WSI being a replacement airport for SYD.

We shall see, but SYD is so well connected into the heavy rail system, it’s often faster than taxis in the inner suburbs, WSI is going to have to offer significant savings to compete like for like. That’s why I see WSI as a supplementary domestic airport for those living out that way, I really can’t see the premium international traffic going there (except maybe one or two curfew flights) unless the government forces it. Which again, is not a great thing for pax.

 

[jase05]

We don’t, but you just need to look at other cities with smaller legacy airports near the city centre, and new geeenfield airports in the outskirts.

In most cases it’s the closer legacy airport that remains the more popular airport, and governments have only made a success of the new airports by regulation (eg max route distance like LGA), slot restrictions or increased fees. Not really a win for the passenger when the outcome is forced on them against their wishes.

But for all your accolades for the government, I agree with @SYD it was a massive fail not to include heavy rail at the airport with direct services to the CBD. That could singlehandedly be the death knell in any hopes of WSI being a replacement airport for SYD.

We shall see, but SYD is so well connected into the heavy rail system, it’s often faster than taxis in the inner suburbs, WSI is going to have to offer significant savings to compete like for like. That’s why I see WSI as a supplementary domestic airport for those living out that way, I really can’t see the premium international traffic going there (except maybe one or two curfew flights) unless the government forces it. Which again, is not a great thing for pax.

Absolutely the government got it wrong with rail but as others have mentioned it one day might get the required infrastructure. Being government owned and operated it’s in their interests to not let it become a white elephant.
The length of time is the key factor, it’s not going to suddenly overtake SYD and indeed will probably struggle for a while but in 30 or 40 years who knows. At the very least it should hopefully force SYD into some major works ( a bulldozer would be best)
It would be rather ironic though if the government paid airlines to take some services out there especially QR

 

[RooFlyer]

I do not think they should have been allowed to put the word Sydney in the name, as it's ridiculously misleading.

Well, its in western Sydney, which is a perfectly accurate geographic description. Like 'North Sydney' is that part of Sydney north of the city centre. Does that confuse people? Do tourists arrive and think 'Huh? I'm confused'? Should it be re-named? The South Sydney Rabbitohs may resist a name change.

The 'Sydney Olympics' and 'Sydney Olympic Park' were/is actually in the City of Parramatta. And Wiki, although not the be-all and end-all actually describes it as (my bold):

Sydney Olympic Park is a suburb of Greater Western Sydney, located 13 kilometres west of the Sydney central business district, in the local government area of the City of Parramatta Council. It is commonly known as Olympic Park but officially named Sydney Olympic Park.

Were all the athletes and tourists visiting in 2000 milling around the CBD looking for the 'Sydney Olympic Stadium'?

So you really don't need to be in the City of Sydney to be 'Sydney proper' do you?

 

[ausfox]

The demographic centre of Sydney is Rosehill, beside Parramatta.

 

[Lynda2475]

The demographic centre of Sydney is Rosehill, beside Parramatta.

Which demographic ? Assuming you mean population distribution? Note that Rosehill is closer to SYD than WSI by 12km.

At the very least it should hopefully force SYD into some major works ( a bulldozer would be best)

Notice those throwing the most hate on SYD dont even live in Sydney (or NSW). Sure the QF lounges need a renovation (not bull dozing) but its far better connected by public transport than Melbourne and is nice and close to the city and is served well by a variety of airlines. Simple improvements like removing curfew and free transfer from DOM-INT by train solve most issues.

 

[justinbrett]

Absolutely the government got it wrong with rail but as others have mentioned it one day might get the required infrastructure. Being government owned and operated it’s in their interests to not let it become a white elephant.
The length of time is the key factor, it’s not going to suddenly overtake SYD and indeed will probably struggle for a while but in 30 or 40 years who knows. At the very least it should hopefully force SYD into some major works ( a bulldozer would be best)
It would be rather ironic though if the government paid airlines to take some services out there especially QR

I guess have a chat with MEL…

We all know how infrastructure in this country works. Any retrofit will be decades later at exponential cost. And so, they mostly never happen.

As for being government owned that thing will be sold off quicker than Taylor Swift’s new album.

I don’t understand the hate for SYD. T3 is a really nice terminal. I also have no problems with T1, sure the transit between the two could be better but that’s a much easier fix than providing proper PT to WSI.

I will admit T2 is pretty bad but I guess that’s up to VA and JQ to lobby for.

 

[jase05]

Which demographic ? Assuming you mean population distribution? Note that Rosehill is closer to SYD than WSI by 12km.



Notice those throwing the most hate on SYD dont even live in Sydney (or NSW). SYD is my main airport. The QF lounges need a renovation (not bull dozing) but its far better connected by public transport than Melbourne and is nice and close to the city and is served well by a variety of airlines.

You do realise that there

I guess have a chat with MEL…

We all know how infrastructure in this country works. Any retrofit will be decades later at exponential cost. And so, they mostly never happen.

As for being government owned that thing will be sold off quicker than Taylor Swift’s new album.

I don’t understand the hate for SYD. T3 is a really nice terminal. I also have no problems with T1, sure the transit between the two could be better but that’s a much easier fix than providing proper PT to WSI.

I will admit T2 is pretty bad but I guess that’s up to VA and JQ to lobby for.

As I’ve said, time will tell.
In 30-40 years we will either look back and laugh or cry or perhaps even a bit of both.
It’s going to make me a stack of money so that’s all that matters

 

[SYD]

In 30-40 years we will either look back and laugh or cry or perhaps even a bit of both.
It’s going to make me a stack of money so that’s all that matters

I’ll be laughing if I’m still alive - I might have made QF LTP by then. They better have a bloody good F lounge out there by then….

 

[Lynda2475]

I’ll be laughing if I’m still alive - I might have made QF LTP by then. They better have a bloody good F lounge out there by then….

Given the older average age of members here, few AFFers will be around in 30 let alone 40 years to see. I plan to still be here then BUT still avoiding WSI.

Don't think there will be an F lounge there as doubt any of the F routes which for QF will likley only be the ULH JFK, LHR and maybe CDG will be flying from WSI as majority of those who can afford to fly F and QF J live closer to SYD. The outer west has much lower incomes.

 

[ayebee]

Absolutely the government got it wrong with rail but as others have mentioned it one day might get the required infrastructure.

Not being in Sydney, haven't paid much attention to WSI, but I thought the rail connection was being built for when the airport opened ??
Sad thing for us in Melbourne is this greenfields site will have a rail connection well before Melbourne :-(

 

[dajop]

Not being in Sydney, haven't paid much attention to WSI, but I thought the rail connection was being built for when the airport opened ??
Sad thing for us in Melbourne is this greenfields site will have a rail connection well before Melbourne :-(

It will have a rail connection but the one it will have would be equivalent to MEL having a rail connection to Broadmeadows where you change trains to travel to the CBD . That’s what travellers will need to do to travel to the Western Sydney CBD (Parramatta) or indeed the Sydney CBD.

 

[justinbrett]

Not being in Sydney, haven't paid much attention to WSI, but I thought the rail connection was being built for when the airport opened ??
Sad thing for us in Melbourne is this greenfields site will have a rail connection well before Melbourne :-(

In typical Australian fashion they went with the cheaper option - it’s getting a Metro connection that runs and terminates in St Marys, and from there it’s existing heavy rail to Central. It’s 60 minutes from St Marys to Central plus the metro connection - around 90 minutes all up, and close to 2 hours between SYD and WSI.

You do realise that there

As I’ve said, time will tell.
In 30-40 years we will either look back and laugh or cry or perhaps even a bit of both.
It’s going to make me a stack of money so that’s all that matters

I think you’re putting far too much pressure on it. Let’s get it open and get it doing its core job serving domestic routes first, as that is not a given. Just have a chat with the Germans about BER.

The last thing we need is another Bonza type organisation that overreaches and fails spectacularly, particularly if the government is involved!

 

[SYD]

Not being in Sydney, haven't paid much attention to WSI, but I thought the rail connection was being built for when the airport opened ??
Sad thing for us in Melbourne is this greenfields site will have a rail connection well before Melbourne :-(

The metro line extension being built runs north / south. WSI is 60 kms west of the CBD…. The Ven diagram of WSI metro patronage and CBD commuters is two non-overlapping circles.

For Melbournians, that would be akin to a metro line between Geelong and Ballarat via AVV.

 

[ayebee]

Thanks (dajop, justinbrett & syd) for the clarifications on the rail infrastructure.
I doubt I will ever pass through WSI given the odd occasion I go to Sydney it is to visit folks in the Eastern and southern burbs. Also, can't imagine needing WSI for an international transfer as if it is not QF then there will be a direct from MEL.

 

[tdimdad]

It can never be as good as SYD based on the fact unlike SYD it is absolutely no where near Sydney proper.

Depends on how you look at Sydney and what is 'Sydney proper'? WSI is firmly within the greater Sydney / metropolitan Sydney area.

In fact, if you look at a map, the travel times from SYD to Parramatta CBD by car at a fast time are 30 mins (using M4 with astronomical tolls) and 50 mins by train. Guess what, Bradfield (closest approximation to WSI on the map now) to Parra CBD is just a tiny fraction more (rail is 30 mins from St Marys + whatever the metro will take).

Essentially, SYD is optimal for the eastern suburbs and Northern Beaches / North Shore. For everyone else, WSI might be much more optimal.

My own guess is that 80% of the business & premium traffic will remain in SYD for now because of the proximity to the CBD (as it is now). The more price sensitive traffic may perhaps move to WSI, at least to start with, with a sprinkling of business/premium, especially as the Central and Western Sydney areas gradually gain more strength.

 

[SYD]

Essentially, SYD is optimal for the eastern suburbs and Northern Beaches / North Shore. For everyone else, WSI might be much more optimal.

No, not really. Even as far west as Parramatta would be a coin toss between the two.

But geography aside, it’ll come down to what’s actually on offer from WSI.

 

[jpp42]

I do not think they should have been allowed to put the word Sydney in the name, as it's ridiculously misleading.

I don't know if anyone gatekeeps the names like this. The local authority can pick whatever they want.

Look at "New York Stewart Airport" - 100km and 1.5 hours from NYC, or "Paris-Beauvais Airport" at 80km away from Paris itself ... there are plenty more examples.