Virgin Blue to vie for business passengers: Report

[ejb]

The problem with all these implementation of our "wish lists" is that it costs a lot to implement. Hopefully they would do it in a manner that they won't have cashflow problems.

Also hopefully with the improvements more people/companies (not to mention people here!) would move to DJ rather than waiting for QF to have specials matching DJ fares. Otherwise all these work would be a waste of time and money.

I have a feeling this is very likely to happen.

DJ improve services, add J class, this forces QF to improve and everyone stays with QF where they have status, hurting DJ financially.

I have opinions about what DJ could do but by butt will remain firmly in QF seats. After 9 years of QF and just about to get to LTS and hoping to get to LTG within the next 4 years I will not head over to DJ and start again.

I wish them luck and look forward to QF improving their service to match anything DJ throw at them.

ejb

 

[pauly7]

I have opinions about what DJ could do but by butt will remain firmly in QF seats. After 9 years of QF and just about to get to LTS and hoping to get to LTG within the next 4 years I will not head over to DJ and start again.

I wish them luck and look forward to QF improving their service to match anything DJ throw at them.

ejb

But what if, in tandem with all these improvements, DJ offered a status match?

 

[Justchecking]

But what if, in tandem with all these improvements, DJ offered a status match?

Exactly!

And lets not underestimate the fact that incumbents in a marketplace are usually pretty secure in their position and don't react as strongly nor as quickly as they really should. It's often the case that real effort doesn't show up until % is lost to a significant degree. Just take a look at any two horse race in any industry to see evidence of this.

Apple was all but dead in the late 90's, but they came up with a concept that so far has had them winning for over a decade. They charge almost double what any pc company charges for their hardware\software package, yet people line up to buy it and marketshare is increasing. Their niche is expensive but usable lifestyle technology. Nobody did anything about the new and funky clamshell pc's when they came out. Now everyone's an also-ran with coloured laptops while apple is selling aluminium and glass. There's always a way to win and usually the competition don't see it coming or don't take it seriously when it arrives.

The iPad has ony just hit the market but I see them everywhere even while tech guru's admonish their limitations and um and ah over how useful they are. Clearly they are useful enough to sell. Hopefully JB can come up with a way for VB to win also.

 

[dajop]

DJ improve services, add J class, this forces QF to improve and everyone stays with QF where they have status, hurting DJ financially.

I guess it does depend to a certain extent on what DJ can do to extract corporate agreements that require x% of travel spend to be on DJ group. I imagine it's not that uncommon to have a situation where the individual travelling has no say on which of the two airlines they fly with, and indeed the person making the decision/entering the agreement may not travel all that much - and thus not be affected by it.

 

[oz_mark]

Their niche is expensive but usable lifestyle technology. Nobody did anything about the new and funky clamshell pc's when they came out. Now everyone's an also-ran with coloured laptops while apple is selling aluminium and glass. There's always a way to win and usually the competition don't see it coming or don't take it seriously when it arrives.

The iPad has ony just hit the market but I see them everywhere even while tech guru's admonish their limitations and um and ah over how useful they are. Clearly they are useful enough to sell. Hopefully JB can come up with a way for VB to win also.

The interesting thing, though, is that Apple does not specifically target the corporate market, and any corporate usage is incidental.

The thing to bear in mind with regard to the QF response is that they have drawn a line in the sand and don't want to go below 65% market share between JQ and QF. That line is drawn, and I would expect that they will defend it.

 

[Justchecking]

The interesting thing, though, is that Apple does not specifically target the corporate market, and any corporate usage is incidental.

The thing to bear in mind with regard to the QF response is that they have drawn a line in the sand and don't want to go below 65% market share between JQ and QF. That line is drawn, and I would expect that they will defend it.

Was not really using Apple as an example of successful corporate marketing. More an example where everyone said they were done but they weren't and have managed to succeed despite conventional wisdom and all the naysayers by doing something better and being original.

Yes absolutely there are always barriers to cross when you are breaking into something. But the way some of the punters here talk it's like it's a forgone conclusion that all the changes will fail and QF will be untouched in their market supremacy. VB may not have the resources of QF, but they may yet have something QF do not which will help them succeed.

 

[harvyk]

Was not really using Apple as an example of successful corporate marketing.

This is not a good comparision... The way Apple has managed to restore itself has been by completely changing the type of business it is...

It's gone from a computer company to a music company to a mobile devices company... iPod \ iPhone \ iPad, none of these are apple computers... They are all appliances, complete with software to work with the major competitors software \ hardware. Basically Apple found and properly exploited a niche (one that a few others had tried and failed at) and has been working with that ever since.

For DJ to do an apple, they would have to stop flying (or have a couple of token flights) and set up a rail network in it's place and convince everyone that it's rail network is the better way of transport.\

 

[Justchecking]

This is not a good comparision... The way Apple has managed to restore itself has been by completely changing the type of business it is...

It's gone from a computer company to a music company to a mobile devices company... iPod \ iPhone \ iPad, none of these are apple computers... They are all appliances, complete with software to work with the major competitors software \ hardware. Basically Apple found and properly exploited a niche (one that a few others had tried and failed at) and has been working with that ever since.

For DJ to do an apple, they would have to stop flying (or have a couple of token flights) and set up a rail network in it's place and convince everyone that it's rail network is the better way of transport.\

Ok so its not a good example. Big deal. I still refuse to write VB off on the basis that QF exist.

PS - Last time I looked Apple never stopped making and selling computers. Yes they sell other devices as well but that's called product line expansion. And when exactly did Apple, produce music, in order to be called a music company? They make devices that play music. Would you also say that Sony are a camera company on the basis of adding a line of cameras to their product sheet?

 

[codash1099]

But what if, in tandem with all these improvements, DJ offered a status match?

I'm all for improvements at DJ - I've often said that they need to get off the fence and it looks like that may be about to happen. Real competition can only do good.

However, I'd need a bit more that just a status match to move from QF. For example, better international services from PER, wide-bodies on the PER - SYD/MEL routes and, most importantly, a real alliance with other reputable overseas carriers.

 

[notzac]

...and, most importantly, a real alliance with other reputable overseas carriers.

The whole needs-to-be-in-an-alliance thing has come up a bit recently, so I think this is worth delving in to ... what do you actually want out of an alliance? And also - what do you mean by "reputable overseas carriers"? I struggled a bit with the alliance thing myself, and realised that once you get rid of the "A-word", what I'm actually after is:

• Priority check-in/bags/boarding
• Priority security (where it makes sense to have it - e.g., the US)
• Lounge access
• Ability to earn/burn points on partners

..and that's about it. Then when I looked at the existing serious Velocity partners (so far, VS and DL fit that bill in my own estimation), I'm seeing that a lot of this is already covered for DJ Gold members:

VS:
* V Australia and Virgin Atlantic flyers can check in at the International Business and Upper Class counters (respectively).
* Free access for you and a travelling friend at selected Virgin Atlantic Clubhouses.
* Priority baggage and boarding, where possible.
* Priority security fast track at Heathrow, where possible.

..so that ticks all the boxes

DL:
* Lounge access

..admittedly not as good as it could be, but a promising start.

NZ and VX - presumably something will come out of arrangements with these carriers, but whatever it is, it's not public knowledge.

--

I'm not for a second suggesting that it's quite up to scratch yet, but more if DJ/VA/whoever can negotiate preferential treatment on other carriers for status pax as with VS .. do you really still need an alliance? I'm not sure you do.

Getting out my wishlist, I'd personally really like to see decent arrangements with DL, EK and LH/LX.

*gets off soap box*

 

[pauly7]

The thing to bear in mind with regard to the QF response is that they have drawn a line in the sand and don't want to go below 65% market share between JQ and QF. That line is drawn, and I would expect that they will defend it.

I would suggest that DJ are concentrating more on making every % point of market share they hold to be more valuable rather than just volume centric. I'd rather have 20% market share but yielding higher than 50% market share and losing money

Who knows, JB might be making DJ smaller (volume) but focussing on value!

 

[medhead]

I fail to see how it is dodgy journalism to compare prices that are adjusted for inflation. This is standard financial practice to not adjust the price to make a real comparison would be dodgy. I don't compare the $1000 my parents paid for their first block of land with what I paid for my first block of land.

And when exactly did Apple, produce music, in order to be called a music company? They make devices that play music. Would you also say that Sony are a camera company on the basis of adding a line of cameras to their product sheet?

Apple is a music company in exactly the same way that JB hifi is a music company. I won't bother going into my explaination of why apple computers are not hideously expensive.

 

[codash1099]

The whole needs-to-be-in-an-alliance thing has come up a bit recently, so I think this is worth delving in to ... what do you actually want out of an alliance? And also - what do you mean by "reputable overseas carriers"? I struggled a bit with the alliance thing myself, and realised that once you get rid of the "A-word", what I'm actually after is:

• Priority check-in/bags/boarding
• Priority security (where it makes sense to have it - e.g., the US)
• Lounge access
• Ability to earn/burn points on partners

..and that's about it. Then when I looked at the existing serious Velocity partners (so far, VS and DL fit that bill in my own estimation), I'm seeing that a lot of this is already covered for DJ Gold members:

VS:
* V Australia and Virgin Atlantic flyers can check in at the International Business and Upper Class counters (respectively).
* Free access for you and a travelling friend at selected Virgin Atlantic Clubhouses.
* Priority baggage and boarding, where possible.
* Priority security fast track at Heathrow, where possible.

..so that ticks all the boxes

DL:
* Lounge access

..admittedly not as good as it could be, but a promising start.

NZ and VX - presumably something will come out of arrangements with these carriers, but whatever it is, it's not public knowledge.

--

I'm not for a second suggesting that it's quite up to scratch yet, but more if DJ/VA/whoever can negotiate preferential treatment on other carriers for status pax as with VS .. do you really still need an alliance? I'm not sure you do.

Getting out my wishlist, I'd personally really like to see decent arrangements with DL, EK and LH/LX.

*gets off soap box*

The missing factor appears to be points earn/burn with a wider range of airlines as well as status recognition. Your "wishlist" represents a mini-alliance operating within other alliances.

If I had my druthers, membership of *A would be the ideal.

 

[oz_mark]

Yes absolutely there are always barriers to cross when you are breaking into something. But the way some of the punters here talk it's like it's a forgone conclusion that all the changes will fail and QF will be untouched in their market supremacy. VB may not have the resources of QF, but they may yet have something QF do not which will help them succeed.

Personally, I hope they do succeed - and that corporate Australia does give them support. Personally, I will be more likely to fly them if they have widebodies with the right product doing the trans-con routes

 

[ejb]

But what if, in tandem with all these improvements, DJ offered a status match?

Status match they may, but lifetime status match I can't see.

I guess it does depend to a certain extent on what DJ can do to extract corporate agreements that require x% of travel spend to be on DJ group. I imagine it's not that uncommon to have a situation where the individual travelling has no say on which of the two airlines they fly with, and indeed the person making the decision/entering the agreement may not travel all that much - and thus not be affected by it.

I am lucky in that I make the decisions.

ejb

 

[Must...Fly!]

To quote the article...

What planet is this journalist living on?

Really? I don't think so. Certainly I've noticed increases, and the official data published here: http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/21/Files/air_fares.xls does tend to indicate fares have risen substantially since 2001. I suppose if you also add in CPI increases etc, you could claim they've remained stable... but that's dodgy journalism IMHO.

http://www.bitre.gov.au/statistics/aviation/air_fares.aspx

 

[dk4]

Ability to earn/burn points on partners ..so that ticks all the boxes

I would add that I need to earn status credits when flying on partner airlines, as well as points earning at "status bonus" levels. (More than just simply being "recognised" when flying partners.)

 

[StevePER]

I most want to be able to burn on partner airlines in all classes at reasonable rates, including one-way awards. Additionally, I'd like some visibility of award flight costs and availability on partner airlines.

 

[Groundfeeder]

Ah, another chance for Compass to slip into the vacating LCC slot!!

They have lots of experience ...

 

[medhead]

Re: SMH article on DJ's push for more business

Really? I don't think so. Certainly I've noticed increases, and the official data published here: http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/21/Files/air_fares.xls does tend to indicate fares have risen substantially since 2001. I suppose if you also add in CPI increases etc, you could claim they've remained stable... but that's dodgy journalism IMHO.

I'm a bit slow getting back to this, but the official data that you've quoted shows that the fares in June 2001 and June 2010 are either basically the same or have decreased. I have no idea how it indicates a substantial increase.