Virgin Blue signs up for open skies to the US

[Homer]

February 15, 2008 - 2:53PM

Virgin Blue has been given the all-clear to launch ten weekly flights to North America by November, after Australia and the United States signed an Open Skies Agreement.

The deal will now allow Virgin offshoot V Australia and another Australia or US carrier unrestricted access on the route.

The agreement will remove a cap which restricted airlines from both countries flying four weekly flights in their first year of operation on the route.

From: Australia and the United States have finalised the long-awaited Open Skies Agreement which will allow vast expansion of air travel and competition on the busy trans-Pacific route

 

[straitman]

This should certainly make things a little more interesting.

 

[simongr]

Still no SQ though

So is it likely that another US carrier will actually make the effort to do this? Given AA dont even fly to China due to pilot issues (not blaming the pilots but it is linked to AA and the pilots not resolving their differences) I dont see them flying all the way here.

It is a profitable route but I dont see many Oz based execs used to flying in QF comfort flying a US carrier...

 

[NYCguy]

It is a profitable route but I dont see many Oz based execs used to flying in QF comfort flying a US carrier...

Or vice-versa.

Many American corporations (and the Government) have a thing about only flying American carriers.

 

[dajop]

Or vice-versa.

Many American corporations (and the Government) have a thing about only flying American carriers.

However, as they would be booked to/from Australia on AA, I'm sure a lot of them (government not included) don't realise they are flying on another carrier until they arrive at LAX and have to exchange their AA boarding pass for a QF one.

 

[robertz]

Great, about time....
I'm waiting for SYD-DFW flight or even better SYD-ATL direct with DL (With extra fuel tanks of course). Does this mean UQ can carry domestic passengers between SYD-MEL without going international?

Rob

 

[SeaWolf]

SQ has commented on the new agreement.
Singapore says open skies only a 'half step' - News - Travel - theage.com.au

 

[JohnK]

The Australia-USA route is one of the most expensive routes per km in the world and I do not see any changes once V Australia enters the market.

I know SQ has wanted to participate on this route for a long time but again I am not convinced they have the consumers best interests in mind. SQ has had ample opportunity to prove to Australians that they can compete with QF and provide cheaper airfares but consistently their airfares are on the expensive side from Australia to Singapore/Europe.

Maybe if a low frills LCC entered the route we will see prices drop but this is a long flight to be travelling low frills....

 

[dajop]

SQ has had ample opportunity to prove to Australians that they can compete with QF and provide cheaper airfares but consistently their airfares are on the expensive side from Australia to Singapore/Europe.

SQ is competing with QF on the Europe route. But competition doesn't always mean competing on price. Now, I am sure we can all debate the substance behind their image, but there is no doubt they have created an image that leads many to perceive they offer higher quality service, particularly in the back of the bus. That gives them an opportunity to actually charge airfares on the "expensive side", and are competing on quality not price.

 

[NM]

The Australia-USA route is one of the most expensive routes per km in the world and I do not see any changes once V Australia enters the market.

Most expensive by what measure? How does it compare to other routes of 7500 miles or 13.5 hour routes? When I consider that that fuel for the last hour of the 13.5 hour flight has to be tankered for 12.5 hours I realise that its going to be more expensive per km to operate a 13.5 hour trans-Pacific flight than to operate a 7.5 hour Aus-Asia flight.

 

[superchris]

Great, about time....
I'm waiting for SYD-DFW flight or even better SYD-ATL direct with DL (With extra fuel tanks of course). Does this mean UQ can carry domestic passengers between SYD-MEL without going international?

Rob

MEl-ORD would suit me fine thanks

 

[JohnK]

Now, I am sure we can all debate the substance behind their image, but there is no doubt they have created an image that leads many to perceive they offer higher quality service, particularly in the back of the bus. That gives them an opportunity to actually charge airfares on the "expensive side", and are competing on quality not price.

It would be very hard to convince my mother that SQ offers a higher quality service than other carriers. She is not a frequent flyer, does not use the IFE, is very patient and is not very fussy. She was very disappointed that her vegetarian meal did not contain any vegetables.

Her next trip will be in another 2-3 years and already she is saying she doesn't want to go with SQ again.

 

[dajop]

It would be very hard to convince my mother that SQ offers a higher quality service than other carriers.

Everyone has bad experiences, and having read about the experience your mother had both here and in another thread, I can understand your point of view. I have flown 50+ times in SQ in either Y or J and probably 20+ times on QF international in either Y or J, and it would very difficult to convince me that on balance SQ does not offer the better service - but there have been occasions when their service has been very disappointing (probably at QF levels, which is simply just not good enough for SQ as I would expect better from them).

However, as I said originally though ... we can all debate the substance behind it, but they do seem to have created an image that leads many (but not all) to perceive they offer higher quality service.

 

[serfty]

Most expensive by what measure? ...

Certainly ex Oz.

As for 13½ hour routes, SIN-LHR springs to mind.

With the competition on the Kangaroo Route, one can regularly fly Oz-Europe for far less than it costs for Oz-USA, and that includes a 'bonus' 8-10 hours flight oz-asia.

 

[JohnK]

Most expensive by what measure?

Cost of airfare. Compare any long routes in the world and you will find that the Australia-USA route is the most expensive per km.

Competition will be good but again I do not see airfares getting cheaper. Why undercut each other and affect profit? Too easy to maintain the status quo....

 

[NM]

Cost of airfare. Compare any long routes in the world and you will find that the Australia-USA route is the most expensive per km.

that is very much a sweeping statement, and one that does not always hold true.

Firstly you must compare apples with apples. That means you need to be comparing routes that are around 7500 miles. Naturally the cost/mile will be less for shorter flights due to the reduced need to tanker fuel for 13 hours or more. The SYD-LAX and MEL-LAX routes are at the extreme limit of unimpeded uplift due to fuel capacity, so you must compare with similar range-limited routes.

So the base figure for a QF published fare for SYD-LAX is an N fare for $1499, making it just over $0.20/mile.

So when I look at CX fares for HKG-LAX, I see their cheapest published fare works out at $0.28/mile. And for HKG-JFK its up to $0.30/mile.

Similarly SQ's cheapest fare for SIN-SFO is $0.28/mile. But UA on the same route is $0.12/mile.

There are not any Europe-Asia routes that exceed 7000 miles, so none that make a suitable comparison. Asia-USA are about the only real comparisons.

UA operates ORD-PVG and they come out at $0.23/mile. And for UA's ORD-HKG the cost is $0.24/mile.

In fact, of all the >7000 mile flights I checked, almost all were over the "magic" $0.20/mile.

The one that surprised me was EK's SYD-DXB was over $0.30/mile.

 

[simongr]

How about YYZ-HKG for 10c/km?

 

[JohnK]

Are these airfares from Expert Flyer? What time period? Does it include taxes and surchages? The cheapest lead in airfare SYD-LAX from the QF website is $1978.

I have looked at some examples for early July on Zuji and airline websites.

So the base figure for a QF published fare for SYD-LAX is an N fare for $1499, making it just over $0.20/mile.

The UA airfare is ~$2983 or $0.40/mile, the AA airfare (codeshare) is $2925 or $0.39/mile and the QF airfare (QF website) is $3070 or $0.41/mile

So when I look at CX fares for HKG-LAX, I see their cheapest published fare works out at $0.28/mile. And for HKG-JFK its up to $0.30/mile.

For HKG-LAX the CX airfare is ~$1550 or $0.21/mile and the UA airfare is ~$1526 or $0.21/mile.

For HKG-JFK the CX airfare is ~$1801 or $0.22/mile.

Similarly SQ's cheapest fare for SIN-SFO is $0.28/mile. But UA on the same route is $0.12/mile.

I could not find a scheduled SQ direct SIN-SFO flight in July.

There is a direct TG flight BKK-JFK, 8677 miles, and the airfare is $2065 or $0.24/mile.

If you have sourced these airfares from Expert Flyer there are some serious anomalies especially when Zuji quotes HKG-LAX, HKG-JFK cheaper than your cheapest example.

As always with these type of numbers the interpretation is not always the same. YMMV!

 

[NM]

Are these airfares from Expert Flyer? What time period? Does it include taxes and surchages? The cheapest lead in airfare SYD-LAX from the QF website is $1978.

I used EF with departure date of 23/03/08 and return date of 23/04/08, POS being Australia and priced in A$. The I took the lowest fare price returned for the airlines operating non-stop services. So all fares should be comparable.

The variations noted just go to show that the original statement that "Compare any long routes in the world and you will find that the Australia-USA route is the most expensive per km" is untrue. Fares vary greatly on most routes depending on a lot of variables. I was showing that the statement does not always hold true. It may be a perception, but is not fact.

I could not find a scheduled SQ direct SIN-SFO flight in July.

SQ2 and SQ16 are "direct" but not non-stop. SQ2 routes via HKG and SQ16 routes via ICN. I did not realise at the time these were one-stop direct services, so not an apples-2-apples comparison.

 

[JohnK]

The variations noted just go to show that the original statement that "Compare any long routes in the world and you will find that the Australia-USA route is the most expensive per km" is untrue.

No problem. I have all the proof I need. As far as I am concerned Australia has some of the most expensive airfares in the world. One of the main reasons why I purchase return airfares from SE Asia for my holiday 3 times a year. More proof is people purchasing DONEs, DCIRs, DAS13s from CMB, NRT, HKG, BKK or SIN.

If I wanted to purchase a ticket for travel to the USA or Europe then I would seriously consider purchasing airfare from SE Asia. I quoted Zuji prices but many travel agents I know in Thailand have much better prices available.