VA to HKG from Jul 5 2017, ex MEL
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I suspect it was not VA - there are professional award booking services/agencies who stalk new routes for just his sort of thing. Grab the seats on behalf of (or to on sell to) their clients.
paultiffen
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From what I can tell Virgin don't charge for a lap infant (besides taxes). Coming back from Asia makes it good value vs having to pay 10% of adult fare on other carriers
Moopere
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I reckon this is pretty good value. I value VFF points at 2.5c each, so monetarily this is about $2700 cash value return in J from MEL.
My problem is I'm in PER
If in the future they decided to fly out of PER, even one day a week, I'd be a happy camper.At the moment with a 2 hour stopover in SIN and utilising SQ the shortest trip time is listed as 11:30, only rewards seating is ASA at about 390K out and another 390K in = 780,000 VFF points (about $19,500 of value to me!). Cash price is about $2500 each way (again, on SQ via VA booking for this example .. better pricing probably available direct to SQ of course) = $5000
Going via MEL best trip time looks to be around 14:40, theres no std rewards pricing available yet, only ASA, but assuming you paid cash + points upgrade = $729 out (inc PER-MEL leg), $729 in = $1458 + 9900 VFF x2 for the domestic leg upgrade to J = 19,800 + 27500 x2 for the MEL-HKG upgrade = 55000 = total 74,800VFF, for a total monetary value including cash component circa $3328.00 or roughly 66% of the cash price via VA/SQ ... but you have to wear about 6 hours of extra trip time return.
As a status run proposition you'd earn:
Domestic Flexi legs x2 = 90SC
MEL-HKG legs x2 = 120SC
VFF points? Don't know how the fare is broken up, but there wouldn't be a large domestic component would be my guess, distance is around 4500 miles one-way MEL-HKG, so including (say) gold bonus = 9000 + 75%= 15750 + a little bit from the domestic legs
The points return would go a fair way towards covering the J upgrade cost of the domestic legs, particularly so if you're a plat.
I'm tempted to give this a try .. at least once. After all, why fly direct? hehehe.
[Edit: Mind, I'm remiss in not mentioning SQ direct rewards pricing here PER-HKG-PER as a saver J award = 65K KF points + AU$163 = 88K VFF transferred = about AU$2363 value at 2.5c/VFF]
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lostincable
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So no routes direct from Sydney to HKG only melbourne?
eastwest101
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Re: VA to HKG from mid 2017 [From Where?]
Not scientific but I just had a look at July and August Wed and Wed return flights and am seeing Y return fares for MEL-HKG-MEL on both QF and on VA at around US$576 return for both carriers, so at the moment it looks like both QF and VA will be matching Y fares down to the last $, both undercutting CX Y fares by only around US$30-ish.
I noticed that both VA and QF are asking USD$2600-$2700 for J return MEL-HKG-MEL which is undercutting CX J fares typically around USD$3200 ish
As I said - not scientific and there will be better prices out there for 1 stop flights via KUL/MNL/BWN etc but at much less convenient/desirable flight times/dates.
From the VA point of view - I don't see the logic in this for VA, its a terrible use of aircraft availability tying up their A330 fleet on the ground in HKG for longer flight times, and yields that seem even lower than the shorter Australian transcon routes, with abundant competition from existing carriers such as QF and CX as well as all the other cheaper 1 stop options and it seems like a sure fire way to lose money to me.
Not scientific but I just had a look at July and August Wed and Wed return flights and am seeing Y return fares for MEL-HKG-MEL on both QF and on VA at around US$576 return for both carriers, so at the moment it looks like both QF and VA will be matching Y fares down to the last $, both undercutting CX Y fares by only around US$30-ish.
I noticed that both VA and QF are asking USD$2600-$2700 for J return MEL-HKG-MEL which is undercutting CX J fares typically around USD$3200 ish
As I said - not scientific and there will be better prices out there for 1 stop flights via KUL/MNL/BWN etc but at much less convenient/desirable flight times/dates.
From the VA point of view - I don't see the logic in this for VA, its a terrible use of aircraft availability tying up their A330 fleet on the ground in HKG for longer flight times, and yields that seem even lower than the shorter Australian transcon routes, with abundant competition from existing carriers such as QF and CX as well as all the other cheaper 1 stop options and it seems like a sure fire way to lose money to me.
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Virgin Bart
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Moopere
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Re: VA to HKG from mid 2017 [From Where?]
Yes, I guess short term this looks to be the case. Long term? I have no idea either, but there must be a strategy surely? Whats the alternative though? retreat entirely inside the 'protection' of domestic? Pretty much all international routes to everywhere are the subject of fierce competition from the myriad international airlines ... so breaking into any airspace is never going to be easy or lucrative.
If I had to guess I'd say theres more than a bit of truth to the idea that we're all been talking about here for many years ... that QF is actually a rewards scheme with an airline attached .... I suspect that VA is much the same. The real profitability comes from the selling of points to basically everyone, but you have to maintain an outlet to burn those points else the whole thing collapses due to punter disinterest. Wasn't this idea proposed as the _real_ reason VA even bothered initially to run with domestic J?
From my own perspective, as a simple earner and burner of VFF points, my interest in this new route is pretty much entirely centred around the possibility of cheaper ways to get to HKG in J. If it were not for that interest I probably wouldn't even bother ... there are, after all, myriad options of cheap lcc options to HKG. Of course I'm here, on AFF, so my own interests are not those of the general flying public, no doubt.
Yes, I guess short term this looks to be the case. Long term? I have no idea either, but there must be a strategy surely? Whats the alternative though? retreat entirely inside the 'protection' of domestic? Pretty much all international routes to everywhere are the subject of fierce competition from the myriad international airlines ... so breaking into any airspace is never going to be easy or lucrative.
If I had to guess I'd say theres more than a bit of truth to the idea that we're all been talking about here for many years ... that QF is actually a rewards scheme with an airline attached .... I suspect that VA is much the same. The real profitability comes from the selling of points to basically everyone, but you have to maintain an outlet to burn those points else the whole thing collapses due to punter disinterest. Wasn't this idea proposed as the _real_ reason VA even bothered initially to run with domestic J?
From my own perspective, as a simple earner and burner of VFF points, my interest in this new route is pretty much entirely centred around the possibility of cheaper ways to get to HKG in J. If it were not for that interest I probably wouldn't even bother ... there are, after all, myriad options of cheap lcc options to HKG. Of course I'm here, on AFF, so my own interests are not those of the general flying public, no doubt.
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Moopere
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Re: VA to HKG from mid 2017 [From Where?]
Much as I like HKG, my real interest would be a direct flight to SZX. Getting directly into China would be a huge bonus for me. I know CZ will take you to their hub in CAN, also an interesting entry point to China, but theres little opportunity to build miles/points in a skyteam airline over here
Much as I like HKG, my real interest would be a direct flight to SZX. Getting directly into China would be a huge bonus for me. I know CZ will take you to their hub in CAN, also an interesting entry point to China, but theres little opportunity to build miles/points in a skyteam airline over here
gwilli1
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Re: VA to HKG from mid 2017 [From Where?]
Im not sure where you are seeing those VA fares ....nothing in there like that at all . I have been monitoring closely since launch and its consistently around $760 rtn in Y & 3460 in J , Wed to wed or any other day combination
Im not sure where you are seeing those VA fares ....nothing in there like that at all . I have been monitoring closely since launch and its consistently around $760 rtn in Y & 3460 in J , Wed to wed or any other day combination
Re: VA to HKG from mid 2017 [From Where?]
Whats wrong with VA being all Dom/Trans Tasman? LAX flight yields are far below what QF can get on a small fleet of 777s that cost them a boatload of money to operate (too small a fleet to be efficient), and a bunch of A330s that are not too big for their Dom operation. Past international musical chairs haven't proven that they know what they're doing half the time (PER-AUH anyone? MEL/BNE-LAX? SYD-JNB?)
Had they concentrated on being a competitive carrier against QF and funnelled traffic into their international partners, they would have had a very good business model. Instead they're choosing to be QF-lite but at almost the same cost and smaller size, without the ability to match on yield or presence. Their cost advantage over QF has gone from 40% to less than 5%... stunning, considering the fact their product on ground and on board is still inferior.
Whats wrong with VA being all Dom/Trans Tasman? LAX flight yields are far below what QF can get on a small fleet of 777s that cost them a boatload of money to operate (too small a fleet to be efficient), and a bunch of A330s that are not too big for their Dom operation. Past international musical chairs haven't proven that they know what they're doing half the time (PER-AUH anyone? MEL/BNE-LAX? SYD-JNB?)
Had they concentrated on being a competitive carrier against QF and funnelled traffic into their international partners, they would have had a very good business model. Instead they're choosing to be QF-lite but at almost the same cost and smaller size, without the ability to match on yield or presence. Their cost advantage over QF has gone from 40% to less than 5%... stunning, considering the fact their product on ground and on board is still inferior.
Moopere
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Re: VA to HKG from mid 2017 [From Where?]
Thats a fair point, particularly in relation to making and maintaining partnership deals, ala the SQ deal, where points can be transferred backwards and forwards.
From my perspective, nothing wrong with VA deciding to concentrate their efforts domestically - they hardly have an international presence anyway - I was just pondering, in my post, why I think they bother with international at all? My thinking being that surely the most profitable arm of their business, by a long way would be my guess, would be VFF ... similar to QFF. So I postulated from that the reasoning to maintaining an international arm was to prop up points burning opportunities, which then reinforces the whole VFF model and business - thus the profits flow.
I don't know about such numbers. Where are they sourced? What could have contributed to such a change over time?
As for inferior product, thats definitely arguable. Despite being a Plat with VA, I'm not chained with golden handcuffs and always look out for the main chance. Fact is, VA give me what I want, as a PER resident, domestically, on the ground and in the air - though the withdrawal of the 330 from a lot of trancon routes might change that.
Thats a fair point, particularly in relation to making and maintaining partnership deals, ala the SQ deal, where points can be transferred backwards and forwards.
From my perspective, nothing wrong with VA deciding to concentrate their efforts domestically - they hardly have an international presence anyway - I was just pondering, in my post, why I think they bother with international at all? My thinking being that surely the most profitable arm of their business, by a long way would be my guess, would be VFF ... similar to QFF. So I postulated from that the reasoning to maintaining an international arm was to prop up points burning opportunities, which then reinforces the whole VFF model and business - thus the profits flow.
I don't know about such numbers. Where are they sourced? What could have contributed to such a change over time?
As for inferior product, thats definitely arguable. Despite being a Plat with VA, I'm not chained with golden handcuffs and always look out for the main chance. Fact is, VA give me what I want, as a PER resident, domestically, on the ground and in the air - though the withdrawal of the 330 from a lot of trancon routes might change that.
Re: VA to HKG from mid 2017 [From Where?]
As a self funded NR who doesn't travel for business purposes, I'd really have to wait for the ink to dry or see decent sale fares in J to travel MEL-HKG in J with VA.
I've currently never flown J or F with Any airline.
With the numbers thrown around here lately for VA J redemptions, the numbers for a SQ J redemption even post SQ "enhancement" isn't that great a difference for a superior product.
A short 2-3 hour layover in SIN via HKG (especially if spent in SK Lounge) is doable, vs a lack of available VA flights even in Y is an annoying inconvenience.
As a self funded NR who doesn't travel for business purposes, I'd really have to wait for the ink to dry or see decent sale fares in J to travel MEL-HKG in J with VA.
I've currently never flown J or F with Any airline.
With the numbers thrown around here lately for VA J redemptions, the numbers for a SQ J redemption even post SQ "enhancement" isn't that great a difference for a superior product.
A short 2-3 hour layover in SIN via HKG (especially if spent in SK Lounge) is doable, vs a lack of available VA flights even in Y is an annoying inconvenience.
Re: VA to HKG from mid 2017 [From Where?]
The introduction of Virgin Australia has significantly increased the ongoing costs associated with running the more premium product. While the planes look nicer, the offerings on board aren't very much different than the Virgin Blue days (eg: food, entertainment).
Whilst the A330s are important transcon (eg for you if you travel often between the coasts), for the majority of their pax, comparing 737s to 737s, both are pretty much the same. QF have better wifi/entertainment options and content and better food on board (they actually serve meals and not just soy crisps). Yes VA upping their game has resulted in improvements at QF, but while VA has significantly increased their costs, QF has been considerably lowering theirs.
From an international point of view for the HKG service, this continues the trend where VA keep making decisions which drive up costs.
The introduction of Virgin Australia has significantly increased the ongoing costs associated with running the more premium product. While the planes look nicer, the offerings on board aren't very much different than the Virgin Blue days (eg: food, entertainment).
Whilst the A330s are important transcon (eg for you if you travel often between the coasts), for the majority of their pax, comparing 737s to 737s, both are pretty much the same. QF have better wifi/entertainment options and content and better food on board (they actually serve meals and not just soy crisps). Yes VA upping their game has resulted in improvements at QF, but while VA has significantly increased their costs, QF has been considerably lowering theirs.
From an international point of view for the HKG service, this continues the trend where VA keep making decisions which drive up costs.
Melburnian1
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Re: VA to HKG from mid 2017 [From Where?]
The standout is how VA is unable to offer consistent timings, and operate daily, on this new route.
Less than daily flights is especially problematical should one be cancelled. Sure, they might put one on *A (SQ via SIN?) but it is comforting to passengers when schedules are daily or frequencies even higher.
Nonetheless with almost 15,000 views on AFF in this thread indicates to me that there's a lot of interest, and that's without considering travellers who are mainland Chinese or Hong Kongers visiting Australia, a substantial percentage of prospective passengers. HNA group may well be excellent at marketing to travel agents and online in mainland China.
The standout is how VA is unable to offer consistent timings, and operate daily, on this new route.
Less than daily flights is especially problematical should one be cancelled. Sure, they might put one on *A (SQ via SIN?) but it is comforting to passengers when schedules are daily or frequencies even higher.
Nonetheless with almost 15,000 views on AFF in this thread indicates to me that there's a lot of interest, and that's without considering travellers who are mainland Chinese or Hong Kongers visiting Australia, a substantial percentage of prospective passengers. HNA group may well be excellent at marketing to travel agents and online in mainland China.
The Frequent Flyer Concierge team takes the hard work out of finding reward seat availability. Using their expert knowledge and specialised tools, they'll help you book a great trip that maximises the value for your points.
yohy?!
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Re: VA to HKG from mid 2017 [From Where?]
576USD / 760AUD is showing up on Google flights as the base fare for most months on VA
576USD / 760AUD is showing up on Google flights as the base fare for most months on VA
eastwest101
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Re: VA to HKG from mid 2017 [From Where?]
Sorry about that - that was entirely my bad - I forgot that Google Flights defaults to USD$ and not AUD.
They sure like to hide the Currency location in Google Flights from users don't they?
Anyway - this is typical Y fares and J fares screen capture, now in AUD$
Seems like VA don't feel the need to undercut/compete with QF on J fares but are seeming to undercut QF for Y fares.
As others have pointed out - its all about getting to HKG at a reasonable price/schedule and possible onwards connections elsewhere - whether mainland China or further afield. Slot availability obviously made a SYD-HKG service entirely untenable/impossible but even using MEL instead still ties up A332s on the ground in HKG for a long time, better than having them sitting on the ground in SYD/MEL or PER possibly? Unless HNA can drive a lot of high yield traffic to the MEL-HKG route I can't see this being an instant money spinner for VA, but we will see how it goes in the future.
Sorry about that - that was entirely my bad - I forgot that Google Flights defaults to USD$ and not AUD.
They sure like to hide the Currency location in Google Flights from users don't they?
Anyway - this is typical Y fares and J fares screen capture, now in AUD$
Seems like VA don't feel the need to undercut/compete with QF on J fares but are seeming to undercut QF for Y fares.
As others have pointed out - its all about getting to HKG at a reasonable price/schedule and possible onwards connections elsewhere - whether mainland China or further afield. Slot availability obviously made a SYD-HKG service entirely untenable/impossible but even using MEL instead still ties up A332s on the ground in HKG for a long time, better than having them sitting on the ground in SYD/MEL or PER possibly? Unless HNA can drive a lot of high yield traffic to the MEL-HKG route I can't see this being an instant money spinner for VA, but we will see how it goes in the future.
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I think one major plus from this is the opportunity to push Chinese Pax around Australia on the domestic network. I have noticed this more in the last couple of years, large groups of Chinese tourists on nearly every flight. Flew into Avalon from Sydney last week with a group of 40 Chinese tourists.
But I do wonder if part of the recent deals from the Chinese investing in Virgin, involved VA sending its fleet up north otherwise they weren't interested.
I think this is clearly a route to please newly founded shareholders but I don't think they had a choice, their balance sheet is stuffed, they need the cash to keep the place going.
But I do wonder if part of the recent deals from the Chinese investing in Virgin, involved VA sending its fleet up north otherwise they weren't interested.
I think this is clearly a route to please newly founded shareholders but I don't think they had a choice, their balance sheet is stuffed, they need the cash to keep the place going.
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