VA Passenger of Size treatment

[Scott K]

I feel that some people take a very distinct - 'punish the fatty' view in these discussions. Although this discussion has been very respectful (although with POS being a common term for 'Piece Of S**' it is easy to have a negative initial response).
Whenever I hear someone perk up with the 'why should they?' Followed by a vague-ish reasoning that often resolves around the person's 'responsibility' etc. It always strikes me that there's an attitude that because the person is large, often from lifestyle choices, they shouldn't be given better seats for free... as though somehow they have gamed the system. There's a distinct air that this is some kind of injustice. This is often followed by an argument that the others that were going to be inconvenienced around them should be given those better seats themselves. As though they should be rewarded for the near imposition that they may have suffered.
In these circumstances the people around the COS someone are neither a problem.
This isn't how problem solving the issue works. And to be frank, it isn't so straight forward for a large person to have perspective on if they are going be able to fit in the seat or not. Sure, there's some obvious cases, but generally most large people fit into a seat, but not necessarily to the comfort of those around them. You just don't know what situation you are going to be in, even if you have flown the airline before and you know what the seats are on a particular plane.
In relation to the 'people around them should get the upgrade' idea. Well, no. Sorry. Those people have purchased a seat, they got that seat, and there's nothing wrong with them in that seat. For an airline, the most obvious path to take is to deal directly with the oversize passenger rather than complicate it with dealing with the additional non-complication of the feelings of other passengers that have the seats they paid for on the plane which were perfectly adequate.
Any airline is going to opt for giving the passenger a comfort seat if they can. But if the solution is to wack them into a larger seat, they will take that option if they need to. This isn't some social injustice. They are responding to a problem with the tools available to them. There's been plenty of bad press from people being forced off planes for their size, and airlines don't want to alienate customers that feel that they are potentially at risk of this happening to them. As I said before, you don't really know if you are going to be comfortable in the seat or not.

 

[kyle]

In my case, I don't want an upgrade. I just want all the space of the seat I paid for.

Throughout the flight, I kept on thinking how I need to step over this person in case of an emergency as there is no way of helping her.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I feel that some people take a very distinct - 'punish the fatty' view in these discussions. Although this discussion has been very respectful (although with POS being a common term for 'Piece Of S**' it is easy to have a negative initial response).

So what's the answer? I feel the OP was worded with sincerity and tack. This is a travel issue which should not be dissuaded from discussion as it does impact us. It has impacted me. The option of course is to refer to considerably overweight people with the medically correct term, which is obese I believe. Would that lessen the impact of the term. A doctor once told me I was bordering on obesity (I'm overweight, but in the upper reaches with a BMI of 29) and I was comfortable with his description as it is factual, yet I fit in my seat, but it becomes very uncomfortable when a much larger obese person sits beside and on top of me. That is not fair and why should the crew have to find him/her a larger (read, business, exit, Yx etc) seat? That person should have been proactive in addressing their issues (and it is their issue which should never be made my issue) in either buying a comfort seat or a business seat or using points to upgrade (let's face it, the cost argument is negligible with so many credit cards giving easy points which could be used for an upgrade) or at the very least, having the conversation about options with the airline well before travel. Turning up, plumping down across multiple seats (regardless of whether someone else is occupying those seats) and then virtually demanding an upgrade is poor form (which is what one of the people mentioned in the OP did do). Speaking with an airline prior to booking may give them info about which flights are more likely to be lightly loaded, hence giving the better chance of a shadow and then that person may just have to put themselves out and turn up early and discuss a possible shadow with the check-in staff. Most staff would, I'm sure, be happy to try and help, well before a foot is placed on the aircraft. As for person No.1 in the OP, that person should not have been given an upgrade. The 2nd person, yes, but there would have been better ways of dealing with it. Sticking ones head in the sand and ignoring discomfort of fellow pax is just plain rude.

 

[JohnK]

So what's the answer? I feel the OP was worded with sincerity and tack. This is a travel issue which should not be dissuaded from discussion as it does impact us. It has impacted me. The option of course is to refer to considerably overweight people with the medically correct term, which is obese I believe. Would that lessen the impact of the term.

I don't understand political correctness. I am obese. I fit into an airline seat. I do not expect the airline to provide a complimentary extra seat for me if I don't fit into my allocated seat.

Some say that obese people who don't fly often don't know airplane seat sizes. Not difficult to find out. And if you sit in seat and half your body overflows that's not borderline and how you thought you were going to fit is beyond me. Generally a good indication is to seat in a train seat or bus seat.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Is POH a thing (person of height)?

Back in the day, I used to get moved with relative ease both at check-in and during international flights. Once that stopped and they started charging and making it more difficult, I got into the points/status game and the rest is history.

Although it's become more easy for some eg NB or PS who are tall as getting an exit seat when they were free could've been problematic as often exits rows would only show available to SG, WP etc. Even though I don't necessarily agree with charging for exit rows as it should be about safety more than extra leg room seats, at least it's now an even playing field should people that are really tall want to pay for it.

How ever if Qantas and AA don't talk to each other and Qantas cancel my flight home from LAX because AA had checked me in Syd on the comfort seat not my seat it makes all the planning moot. It took over 5 hours to get me a seat when I tried to check in to return home to Syd .
All I could think of was I have 14 and half hours squishing someone.

Somehow Qantas and AA eventually got me onto the flight with two seats on a row of three. The plane was full and the bloke in the third seat in our row was very pleased. Unfortunately for me the arm rest didn't go up. So sometimes for us fat ones we do try and it can still fail

Thanks @MEL_Traveller apparently AA checks in one seat and Qantas checks in two. Which caused the issue. So annoying. Definitely a heads up if I do again

Qantas has also been known to check in just one (hence me being able to issue the heads-up )

I have only seen people with extra seats domestically on QF (not sure if international is the same MO) so if you had 4EF you'll get a single boarding pass for 4E with your name plus a SSR comment on the boarding pass EXST. When that is scanned at the boarding gate it boards both 4E&4F. When the booking is made correctly as the pax is linked with the extra seat it's not possible to checkin the comfort seat without the main passenger.

It certainly sounds like mixed carriage, particularly when both airlines involved are on separate GDS's ie AA's Sabre vs QF's Amadeus plays havoc when booking comfort seats.

As each airline does things differently I would avoid at all costs booking a comfort seat for multiple airlines on the same ticket and book a separate ticket unless you were going to be financially disadvantaged by doing it this way.

 

[mrsterryn]

@ozbeachbabe I bought the two seats through a travel agent for code share on AA.
Apparently though that isn't supposed to be able to be done , a comfort seat on another airline. That is what Qantas told me after the fiasco
It didn't help that the staff at LAX were absolutely useless. The poor bloke at AA was so helpful and told me Qantas has to deal and the Qantas staff refused and said it was AA.
I was tired cranky and I was not a pleasant customer that day after having gone to AA sent to Qantas, Qantas sent me back, AA sent me back Qantas refused to ring AA And sent me back. At that point the bloke at AA did all the phone calls and the contacts and was so apologetic about sending me back to Qantas
Qantas then told me to go through security and go to the lounge and wait for a boarding pass. Apart from I have no idea how they could do this by this time I was just soo distressed .
Anyhoo I didn't go and waited till I had a seat.
Side note the poor bloke who was in front desk duty at the lounge actually quivered when I showed my ticket.
Now I would just ring Qantas and ask them to sort it. It also makes me book through Qantas not an agent. I can get even crankier if it fails
I did get compensation in points. I think I got the comfort seat refunded as well

 

[Melburnian1]

So what's the answer?... A doctor once told me I was bordering on obesity (I'm overweight, but in the upper reaches with a BMI of 29) and I was comfortable with his description as it is factual, yet I fit in my seat, but it becomes very uncomfortable when a much larger obese person sits beside and on top of me. That is not fair.... Sticking ones head in the sand and ignoring discomfort of fellow pax is just plain rude....

An outstanding response, but please make it easier on our eyes and brains by splitting your thoughts into paragraphs separated by a line.

If it's any comfort (no pun intended), 67 per cent of adult Australians are now overweight or obese.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

An outstanding response, but please make it easier on our eyes and brains by splitting your thoughts into paragraphs separated by a line.

If it's any comfort (no pun intended), 67 per cent of adult Australians are now overweight or obese.

Split my thoughts?? I only occasionally have my own thought, so please don't ask for me to split it! I'm neither an author nor one with any compulsion to be one. Please ignore any post of mine that falls outside common literacy boundaries ... I won't be offended.

(Line inserted) I'm not sure why I need to know that 67% of Australians are overweight or obese. I am overweight, and according to one Dr, bordering on obese, but it's a very small percentage of people who are causing the airline seat issue. Most people manage to keep within their seat parameters.

(Line inserted) What percentage of overweight or obese people are causing grievance, I wonder? (a considerably smaller figure than their waistline, I'd imagine )

(Line inserted) I think the vast majority of people manage just fine, but in our politically correct, please don't tell the fat kid they're fat society, normality has ground to a halt to pander to the few princesses that feel aggrieved because they fall outside the norm ... oh hang on, they are not outside the norm! If 67% of the population are fat, than they are the norm!

(Line inserted) Thank the Lord, I'm normal and it's just everyone else!

(Line inserted) I wonder who will be pleased now that it is confirmed airlines have to change the 3 + 3 737's to 2+2 to accommodate the 67% of fatties that don't fit on the aircraft?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

When the booking is made correctly as the pax is linked with the extra seat it's not possible to checkin the comfort seat without the main passenger.

The problem has been checking-in the main seat without the EXST. One time they just wrote EXST and the seat number on the boarding pass. Of course they hadn't properly checked in and the EXST auto cancelled as a no show on all remaining flights. A bit of a mess to get it reinstated.

 

[drron]

I am obese and can even fit into a QF 787 Y seat.
The medical term of the passengers described in this thread is Morbid Obesity.Some say a BMI over 35,some a BMI over 40.
Most such people should be aware they wont fit into a standard Y seat.

 

[kyle]

Most such people should be aware they wont fit into a standard Y seat.

I reckon they "think" they would fit, but oblivious to the spillover.

 

[downgraded]

I reckon they "think" they would fit, but oblivious to the spillover.

- Unfortunately comfort seats are not well known about in the wider world, airlines do little to advertise them and whilst an earner for the airline, if everyone started to notice how many are really required on a flight they may start to question.
- the issue of the new Norm is that the morbidly obese are generally only incrementally larger than the norm and so perhaps become immune to their size. A friend of mine in that category has said before that it's only when he sees himself in the mirror he is truly reminded of his size.
- airlines have a responsibility in this when they add an extra seat where the manufacturer hadn't intended. airlines clearly don't believe they can use a wider Y seat as a marketing differentiator to command a higher price. Eg QF 787 - the price of 1 seat split 8 ways, and with less luggage to carry should have been an easy sell, but no, they'd rather fight as a bottom feeder for $1200 airfares to Europe. Interestingly QF surveys have never asked about seat width so did they decided 9 abreast without any real consideration.
- the 737 remains an enigma as it was clearly never designed for this.

And in MHO, the person whose space is being encroached is the one who should be moved (apologies for starting a sentence with "and".

 

[JohnK]

I am obese and can even fit into a QF 787 Y seat.
The medical term of the passengers described in this thread is Morbid Obesity.Some say a BMI over 35,some a BMI over 40.
Most such people should be aware they wont fit into a standard Y seat.

I think my BMI is 40-42+ and I still fit into a standard economy seat.

 

[Daver6]

One thing I don't understand. on a 737/A320 the airlines make a big fuss about who can sit in an emergency exit row over the wing. However, I've scene people sitting within a few rows of the over wing exit who were so large there is no way they would fit through those small doors.

In an emergency evacuation you would have one of two scenarios. Either the person getting stuck and blocking an exit for all others or a large person attempting to get to the front/rear of the aircraft while all others would be going for the closest exit in the opposite direction. How is this not a safety issue?

 

[Moody]

Here's a thought bubble :- In addition to the sizing frame that demonstrates the allowed carry-on dimensions, airlines could have models of the Y/PE/J/F seats at check-in. Not only would they advertise the benefits of premium cabins, they would indicate to .... errr ... Goldilocks ... whether they had made the most appropriate choice of travel class. This would allow the issue to be addressed with check-in staff before boarding.

If Goldilocks was unable or unwilling to avail themselves of other options, then :-

1. Any rearrangements on board should minimise the impact to other passengers
2. If the only solution was to upgrade Goldilocks to a larger seat, then they would lose the right to book anything less in future

Cruel? Perhaps .... but fair too.

 

[kyle]

Damn, I should have done this:

Obese man’s $180 charge on flight

 

[Deleted member 29185]

US$150 for 25% of a 5 hour Y seat sounds steep to me. I don't believe a cash payment is acceptable. You either mind or you don't mind. The cash didn't resolve anything about the comfort, which is the reason behind people not wanting "spillage" to occur.

 

[aaronm]

Sometimes pax try to do the right thing and still end up losing out. I once was next to a very large man on an AA LAX-SYD flight, sitting in PE he still had difficulty with the available space, couldn't get his tray table to sit flat and it was impossible to retract/stow my tray table from the armrest without disturbing him. Poor guy probably would have been better off with a pair of Y seats and the armrest raised.

 

[mrsterryn]

One issue is which planes have the armrests go up? I mean do the ones on the window side go up so you can scoot a bit closer over that way.

 

[Scott K]

So what's the answer? I feel the OP was worded with sincerity and tack. This is a travel issue which should not be dissuaded from discussion as it does impact us. It has impacted me. The option of course is to refer to considerably overweight people with the medically correct term, which is obese I believe. Would that lessen the impact of the term. A doctor once told me I was bordering on obesity (I'm overweight, but in the upper reaches with a BMI of 29) and I was comfortable with his description as it is factual, yet I fit in my seat, but it becomes very uncomfortable when a much larger obese person sits beside and on top of me. That is not fair and why should the crew have to find him/her a larger (read, business, exit, Yx etc) seat? That person should have been proactive in addressing their issues (and it is their issue which should never be made my issue) in either buying a comfort seat or a business seat or using points to upgrade (let's face it, the cost argument is negligible with so many credit cards giving easy points which could be used for an upgrade) or at the very least, having the conversation about options with the airline well before travel. Turning up, plumping down across multiple seats (regardless of whether someone else is occupying those seats) and then virtually demanding an upgrade is poor form (which is what one of the people mentioned in the OP did do). Speaking with an airline prior to booking may give them info about which flights are more likely to be lightly loaded, hence giving the better chance of a shadow and then that person may just have to put themselves out and turn up early and discuss a possible shadow with the check-in staff. Most staff would, I'm sure, be happy to try and help, well before a foot is placed on the aircraft. As for person No.1 in the OP, that person should not have been given an upgrade. The 2nd person, yes, but there would have been better ways of dealing with it. Sticking ones head in the sand and ignoring discomfort of fellow pax is just plain rude.

I understand where you are coming from. Please don't read what I am about to type as an attack on you.

I think the suggesting of sticking one's head in the sand is a bit off there. And to be frank, when it comes to retrospectively resolving issues the term 'should have' is historically the most useless term in the english language. There's a billion should-haves, but in reality there's could-haves that weren't. If you look past the should-haves, and ask the why-didn't, then you move a lot closer to problem solving. I'm not on-board with your solutions either. Airlines are not that easy to contact in advance. I can't see anyone sitting on the phone with Qantas's near-infamous wait times to simply ask the question 'does my butt look big in this'. I'm keen to see an online seat comparator that allows you to fit the variety of body-types into a calculator. You could be morbidly obese and potentially suffering from Turner-syndrome, so sure.... you have a BMI that's off the scale, but at 4"2' you still fit comfortable into one of Tiger-Air's dreadful seats. Yet a 6"4' Rugby player may have only 3% body fat, but easily spill into the seat next to them. However when both of these examples are sitting next to each other there's potentially no problem. I reckon calling Virgin seeing that information would make a fascinating phone-call. Body perspective of the person is going to make it hard for the person to make decisions, too. How big they see themselves as, may be different to how big they really are. Research has found that largely people can't simply gauge the kind of shape they completely are, obese or not, for a broad series of factors.

So in relation to 'person no1 not getting an upgrade', hogwash. The airline resolved this with the tools they had available at the time and there's no reason they should not have. Basing the reasoning on why they shouldn't on a retrospective 'should have' statement is more about how people feel about the person being upgraded than anything else. It's their plane, if they want to upgrade someone that's fine with me.

And I'm going to throw out a suggestion that may set off a few people. If you're concerned about the potential risk of a large person sitting down next to you, why aren't you upgrading yourself?

Let's enjoy the offerings of "Should have's" equally useless close cousin - "Why should I have to".