Underwhelming Business Class Experiences

[JohnK]

Please don't forget that we are all different. Is it just me? Or am I not being fair?

Around 12 months ago I was fed up with Qantas economy and looking for alternatives. I discovered BMI (very late to the party) and after some research it seemed to be a no brainer for business class flights to Asia with points + miles taking into consideration 1,000 miles earned from Hilton nights, 1,700 miles earned from Europcar 1 day rental.

Since then I have had managed to book the following itineraries. Take note that BMI are no longer around

• BKK-SYD on TG A340
• SYD-BKK via SIN on SQ A380 and stopover in SIN
• BKK-SYD on TG 747
• SYD-ICN-MNL on OZ 777
• HKG-SYD on VS A340

and coming up

• MNL-BKK-SIN-SYD on TG777 and SQ A380

I have got to say the experiences have been totally underwhelming. People on AFF put way too much hype on business class products and service. Overall in my opinion there is not a lot of difference between the economy class I am used to on Qantas and the business class I have experienced recently

• TG A340 was quite OK and service is adequate with FA doing rounds up and down the aisles through the night offering water and anything else needed
• TG 747 was my favourite and I think it was upper deck. Service adequate
• SQ A380 is where my issues started with the bench style seat. It actually felt like I was sitting in an FJ/EH Holden with bench seats. Service is OK but nothing special
• OZ 777 was ordinary but in all fairness that service was very good and the FAs tried very hard
• VS A340 was very ordinary and I am really not a fan of herringbone at all. The middle aged FAs looked totally disinterested and it showed in the service. The bed needed to be "made" and once in that mode if you did not sleep it was very difficult to watch IFE

To get those business class seats so far has been very easy and the cost has been minimal

• BMI collected miles from Europcar 1 day car hires and Hilton Hotel stays. Points we also cheap at £12 per 1,000
• VA collected miles from Avis, Hertz car rentals, Hilton hotel stays and transferred some from Amex with 30% bonus

So to date even though the experience is underwhelming the value has been there as I believe the return trips have cost me not more than ~$1200 per trip. But now it all changes again.

• Economy on Qantas is now ~$800 and with that I can earn ~80SCs and ~20,000 QFF points which I value at ~$500 so the trip is very cheap and 9 hours in economy is a cinch
• The same trip with US Airways will cost ~$2000 to purchase miles and taxes and surcharges which is way that these business class are that much and no way would I want to spend that much money for perceived comfort
• There is no way I would pay the asking price, or even discounted price, for business class the airlines are charging. To me premium economy is a 10%-20% premium on economy airfares and business class is 30%-60% premium on economy airfares. I would just about handle but would not want to pay a 100% premium on economy airfares to sit in business class

In saying all of that there is one destination where I feel purchasing points is worth it. Europe

• An economy airfare SYD-ATH in peak season is ~$2500-$2800 and I believe it is possible to purchase 120,000 US Dividend miles and the total cost with taxes and surcharges is ~$2500 but one is travelling in business class

 

[moa999]

If the only thing that matters about a flight is A-B,
then you wont care for premium cabins.

For most pax I frankly would recommend buying the cheapest fare possible and using the difference on accommodation and food at the destination.

Remember a decent Business seat can take up the space of 4-6 economy seats (10 across to 4-6 across, much greater pitch) - you pay for that space!

Then again, not everyone drivers a Hyundai from A-B

 

[anat0l]

I guess overall if you didn't have to pay for it (or it was the same price or cheaper), most people (all?) would fly J rather than Y. That said, of course that'll never be the case (or very, very, very rarely the case). That said - and I'm guilty of this too - most people will probably evaluate their J experience under this false pretense.

More often than not, J will be better than Y, period. How much better? That can only depend on you, and to some people their threshold for calling a "much better experience" differs to yours, which in your mind may make their evaluation seem very exaggerated and overoptimistic. What it comes down to is the relative difference and what you're prepared to pay (in points or cash or both) for that difference (compared to a Y experience).

Some of us don't have a choice, of course (i.e. got no money ).

Short sector J tends to push the boundaries of whether it is "worth it" or not. Even intra-Asia regional J, though in some aspects better than Australian domestic J, is still questionable whether it is significantly better than Y (notwithstanding CX J flown for a certain reason ). Euro J - well, we know that's nothing (but, as if to "compensate", the Y to J cash differential is usually lower than most other regions around the world).

Long haul, on the other hand, can be worth it but again it does depend on what you get out of a long haul J flight that is significantly better than Y.

That said, some other rules of thumb:

• Most award redemptions these days, unless you are booking for multiple people (more than 2 usually) or the auxiliary charges are very low (viz. no YQ, or domestic flights), then redeeming for Y awards these days is almost always a bust, because you're giving up so many points for little gain on the cash price. This is why most award redemptions recommended here start at the W level, especially because most people would not normally purchase such fares in full cash anyway. Now you could still argue that it's not worth flying J because the product is not significantly better than Y. But then I'd still argue that in that case, you're better off purchasing the Y cash fare unless there were no sales and the cost was very high (viz. nil in low buckets). Of course, you still have a "dilemma" as to where you will spend your points.
• If you're redeeming a multi-leg award in J or F, there's usually a rule saying that you will be charged the points amount corresponding to the highest class of service travelled in. So your long haul may be in J or F, then your feeders / connecting flights, albeit not as good as the long haul equivalent, might as well be in the best cabins you can get if it will not affect the overall points cost, let alone cash cost (viz. even if you flew your connecting flight in Y, if the redemption is still priced as if it were J you might as well take the J if it's available).

As it stands, your evaluation frames your own value proposition perfectly. It appears not to line up with a lot of others, but big deal. (Ever thought about writing a TR? You've just done one!) That said, you've also identified a possibility of where you think J might be worth it compared to Y (viz. SYD-ATH using a US DM award). This shows that you do value J in some way (and most people would probably agree with your decision there - not to say you're always wrong and they are always right - it's just we all happen to be often on the same page on this one), and certainly with US DM it means the price tag is also important (cf. if you purchased this J ticket in cash, well, you probably won't be doing it).

 

[Moopere]

• Economy on Qantas is now ~$800 and with that I can earn ~80SCs and ~20,000 QFF points which I value at ~$500 so the trip is very cheap and 9 hours in economy is a cinch

How are you managing to see 2.5c / point of value? I struggle to get even 1c under normal circumstances when redeemed against Y.

That aside, I'm a relatively recent business class convert. 9 hours, even 7-8 hours in normal Y class seating of today is not a cinch for me, I struggle.

 

[Canny man]

I have 12 flights over 5 hours of which 10 are over 10 hours in the next 45 days. This would not be possible for me in Y. The marginal utility of a flat bed and chance to sleep is why I (the company) pays the premium. I couldn't give a stuff when flying under 5 hours, especially with a legroom seat in Y

 

[Alanslegal]

To me, the most important thing I value out of J/F travels for long haul flights is the space. Give me a sloping flat seat (eg. QF, TG etc) give me a wide bench (eg. SQ) and that's perfect. They don't even need to serve me meals or a drink and I will still be happy, I am a relatively simple kind of guy and I am perfectly happy if I have leg room, enough space where I can walk out of my seat at any time without needing to ask the person next to me to move (or being asked to move myself) that's where I see the value. I also value the 'priority' check-in, boarding, baggage, de-planing as very important to (I know if you are a statused passenger you get these benefits even if flying Y but let's assume that you aren't). I passionately dislike waiting (as I get nervous) so expediting most parts of the travel experiences helps alot. Skip the lounges, its nice but I could live without them. People say the service is superior in J/F travel, it sure is, but as again, I am not too fussed that they often never fuss over me. I'm simple. Getting me A to B in relative comfort and efficiency, then J/F, you are worth it.

How are you managing to see 2.5c / point of value? I struggle to get even 1c under normal circumstances when redeemed against Y.

I think JohnK makes the most of his points with OneWorld Award redemptions, that's where you get good value when flying Y. 140,000 to do a quasi-RTW is not bad in his case.

That said, when redeeming J or F, you easily get better than 2.5c value per point.

 

[haydensydney]

Have you flown in F recently JohnK?

I find that after F flights, my capacity to appreciate the J experience is... strained. If however, you've spent your life in the Y cabin - then J is a godsend.

 

[MelUser]

In USA where the domestic economy experience is particularly unpleasant many people will pay for (domestic) First Class just to minimise the pushing and shoving and fighting with other passengers who bring suitcases on the aircraft as cabin baggage for overhead locker space.

 

[anat0l]

I find that after F flights, my capacity to appreciate the J experience is... strained. If however, you've spent your life in the Y cabin - then J is a godsend.

It really depends. If I was flying UA, damn well J would be a godsend (even in UA J is not up there with others in the world)! Especially if I don't get free access to Economy Plus.

An extreme example: if anyone has ever flown MH A330 services (the non-refitted ones), you'll probably agree with me that upgrading or purchasing J is probably not worth it compared to Y (with some exceptions).

Ditto that for Euro J.

I suppose since most of us must rationalise the cost of travel, then eventually our judgement comes down to accepting Y, and in that acceptance some say that they can live with it, and others not. For the latter ones, if they cannot live with it then they will find ways to fly anything but Y (but if they cannot afford it........)

So J is not always the godsend that will deliver you from the pain of Y, because the latter is not that bad in perspective all the time. That said, again that judgement is made in the context of our rationalising the cost of our travel. As I said, if cost was not a consideration at all, of course everyone will just fly J and not Y.

The differences between J and F cast out a similar situation to the above discussion.

 

[JohnK]

How are you managing to see 2.5c / point of value? I struggle to get even 1c under normal circumstances when redeemed against Y.

I value a Oneworld award in economy at ~$4,500 of which $1,000 are taxes and surcharges which leaves $3,500 value for 140,000 QFF points.

And yes I know it is not like the YONE4/5 but still good value to me as I can visit 4 continents or 5 if I want.

Have you flown in F recently JohnK?

I have had a few upgrades to F on the CX 747. It is nice but not worth the asking price.

I find that after F flights, my capacity to appreciate the J experience is... strained. If however, you've spent your life in the Y cabin - then J is a godsend.

It is not that I do not like business class. I think it is overrated but it is still better than economy.

But the difference is I can easily tolerate economy and I want to maximise my travel not looking for "perceived comfort".

 

[boylero]

classic today flew J ULS >SEL got what I considered a cheap fare $140 one way. Arrived ULS, priority checkin one person serving, other checkin 5 people serving, not calling through priority passengers, so I joined the other line :/ Went upstairs to gate, no lounge? Managed to get priority boarding though, on plane take off level out trolley comes through would you like a drink, yes a beer please, sorry no alcohol :O then followed by no meal now I know why was cheap

 

[drron]

I can see where you are coming from John and for you I agree with your conclusions.
I on the other hand just do not like Y.I live by the motto-Life is not a Dress rehearsal-so I go for comfort.
Occasionally you can have it both ways.A couple of years ago after visiting Vietnam we had to find a flight HAN-BKK.TG in Y was $320 one way and AF was $240 in J one way.Was a no brainer.But then AF went and served the champagne in plastic cups!Sacre Bleu.

 

[Berlin]

For a long time, I thought along those lines as well- after all, I had spent a large enough part of my first 30 or so years of my life in Y, not even shying away from Ryanair et al
Now, being spoilt by occasional work trips in J (and hitting the 35yo+ mark :shock, suddenly any flight beyond 4ish hours becomes a struggle in Y and I am even happily paying big(gish) $$ for my spot up the front- and I'm certainly not rich. Why? It basically converts a nightmare experience with stinky strangers sweating into your personal space and coughpy food which doesn't deserve its name into an experience that I truly enjoy, am excited about weeks in advance (not to forget the memories afterwards) AND which allows me to arrive at my destination in one piece, both physically and mentally.
First class, for now, is a different story. While I do truly enjoy it, I am one of the "Only with upgrades and better stuff/drink yourself into the flat seat to make it worth the points" kinda people. Saying that- I see it coming, just waiting until I pass the 50yo mark and, earlier than I'd think now, I'll be complaining about those F PJs not being available in my (by then most likely increased :-|) size...

 

[JohnK]

I can see where you are coming from John and for you I agree with your conclusions.
I on the other hand just do not like Y.I live by the motto-Life is not a Dress rehearsal-so I go for comfort.

I agree that life is not a dress rehearsal but unfortunately the budget only stretches so far.

Sure I can do 1-2 trips a year to Thailand and travel in business class and stay in expensive hotels and be satisfied with my life. But unfortunately I would have to count down 164 days to the next trip.

The other alternative is to have 4-5 trips a year and travel in economy and stay in cheap(ish) hotels and play plenty of golf. The fortunate part is I would only have to count 50-70 days to the next trip which makes my time at work and in Brisbane a little easier to bear.

Personally I think ~$800 for a Qantas airfare in bulkhead economy is a bargain and no need to even consider business cabins for the long haul. But at that cost that leaves some spare cash to fly around in circles in short haul business class to help the status credit balance along.

And best of all is I managed to book a hotel for 7 nights for ~$172 in Pattaya next month. That is an absolute bargain. I could have spent ~$240 which would have included buffet breakfast for 2 people but I already have breakfast included in the cost for golf so a waste. In comparison the Hilton is ~$170/night, the Holiday Inn is ~$130/night etc.

Sometimes the thrill for me is to try and do a trip for as little as possible without sacrificing too much comfort.

 

[lovestotravel]

If you are unhappy on SQA380 in J then I feel you will never be happy in J..

I respect your opinion but overseas I only travel in J and domestically it seems I am doing it in 80% of cases as well now

 

[JohnK]

If you are unhappy on SQA380 in J then I feel you will never be happy in J..

I just did not rate SQ business class that highly but I do not mind their economy class product. I have another SQ business class flight on the A380 in early October so will give me a second chance to compare.

Funnily enough I actually like Qantas business class but I did not use it in my comparison.

It is too expensive for my liking and I have only been in Qantas business class cabin with an op-up.

 

[anat0l]

If you are unhappy on SQA380 in J then I feel you will never be happy in J.

Strike that - there are very comparable J cabins to SQ A380 J.

Dare I say it even QF J could give it a run for its money (on a good day, of course).

 

[k3nnis]

Try CX new J

 

[Canny man]

Just had dinner with prospective client in Canada after leaving oz on wednesday morning. Felt fine and the meal went well. Would not have coped if in y.
Flat beds, they are worth it...

 

[JohnK]

Try CX new J

Unfortunately the customer service and cabin crew are still old CX. The more I fly with them the more hit and miss they become. It is not all sweet smelling roses. Wait until something goes wrong.

Still waiting for someone to call me about my damaged golf bag. The report along with my baggage tags is in Thailand and I left without a reference as I reported it at First Class check-in and I trusted their word. But that story is for another thread on CX lack of customer service....