Travel Agent Booked Biz Class - turns out he used his points and took cash for himself

[MEL_Traveller]

Isn't a breach of contract illegal, though?

No. it’s a civil matter between the parties.

 

[juddles]

No. it’s a civil matter between the parties.

Actually, although I know where you are coming from (re breaching terms and conditions of an airline not in itself to have a statute deeming it illegal), there exists in basically every legal system worldwide the concept of fraud.

"Fraud" in most Australian states involves, at its core, the notion of someone benefiting from doing something that is inherently dishonest. It is, as a law, left wide open to try to allow for all the scams that humans invent. I am sure that a "luxury travel agent" that buys points from individuals (against T & C's), and uses them to provide a ticket to an UNSUSPECTING customer, who risks a complete loss of money, is getting very close to fulfill the requirements to be deemed something that is "against the law" and thus "illegal".

Would a prosecution ever be entertained? Probably not, unless it became a common problem or for some other reason such a prosecution was "in the public interest".

 

[Milboo]

You’re correct Juddles.

Under the Crimes Act (s192E) - if you deceive someone and dishonestly gain a financial advantage, or cause that person a financial disadvantage then you could be guilty of fraud. This has a maximum sentence of 10 years jail.

If the TA purchased the points for less than the cash paid then they have obtained a financial benefit. If the pax is deprived of the points that would have accrued from a paid fare, then that’s a financial disadvantage.

There is absolutely no reason a TA should be pocketing cash and using a points bank to book a ticket - unless they are trying to benefit themselves.

And if the TA has failed to disclose this is what they are doing then it’s deception, especially as it’s not standard practice. If the pax has not got what they paid for (being a paid fare) then technically they could have recourse under the Consumer Law. Would be an interesting argument to hear run though - not sure if it would get up!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You’re correct Juddles.

Under the Crimes Act (s192E) - if you deceive someone and dishonestly gain a financial advantage, or cause that person a financial disadvantage then you could be guilty of fraud. This has a maximum sentence of 10 years jail.

If the TA purchased the points for less than the cash paid then they have obtained a financial benefit. If the pax is deprived of the points that would have accrued from a paid fare, then that’s a financial disadvantage.

There is absolutely no reason a TA should be pocketing cash and using a points bank to book a ticket - unless they are trying to benefit themselves.

And if the TA has failed to disclose this is what they are doing then it’s deception, especially as it’s not standard practice. If the pax has not got what they paid for (being a paid fare) then technically they could have recourse under the Consumer Law. Would be an interesting argument to hear run though - not sure if it would get up!

It's two separate issues.

The buying and selling of points is not illegal. It may be a breach of contract with the airline.

The actions of the travel agent *may* give cause for closer examination. But it could depend on a lot of things. Points can be considered a commodity. Someone wants to sell them. Someone wants to buy them. Someone in the middle matches the two and pockets a fee for doing so. Pocketing a fee in and of itself may not necessarily be illegal or fraudulent.

The passenger got a 'good deal' here. And they acknowledge that. how much did the passenger know? What was said to the passenger. Maybe they were told they were getting a 'special ticket' but didn't ask (including didn't want to ask) what that meant?

The OP may have more answers once they have spoken with the agent.

 

[gphamor]

I have used AFG on 2 occasions, once coming back from Munich on Lufthansa, tickets declared invalid at counter and could not get onto AFG because of time zone difference.
Had to purchase new J tickets with Emirates but had a 10 hour wait at airport for that flight to board.
Contacted AFG on return to Oz, apologies all round and they refunded all of the costs of the purchased tickets.
They said some airlines will not accept FF point-bought tickets unless they are in the name of the customer, but several airlines are ok with this.
Problem is that the customer will not know whether the airline is playing ball until one has arrived at check-in!
The second time was a flight back from NYC via Tokyo on ANA - having given AFG a second chance to perform - and everything went smoothly.
The bottom line is that you can get significant savings on premium cabin using them but there is a risk the ticket won't be honoured.

 

[SOPOOR]

There are “travel agents” who harvest points to offer “cheap” premium travel. Without any further information it is hard to provide proper feedback to the OP.

If reselling points is against t and c
How do they do this long term or regularly

Doing this for family or friends might work but as a business?

 

[mannej]

They stay in business as people don't do their due diligence in the search of the cheapest premium fare...

 

[love_the_life]

Tickets in business class to/from the EU on SQ (unless IST - which is not the EU) is not going to be using points purchased from Lifemiles or UA. Only can get such seats using Velocity, Miles and More (LH) or Krisflyer itself.

IIRC LifeMiles can be used on SQ. But I may be mistaken. Though as noted, the OP may not have flown on them.

A Google search brings up a TA in Brighton which might be relevant.

 

[SOPOOR]

They stay in business as people don't do their due diligence in the search of the cheapest premium fare...

Fair enough
This just reminded me of those Asian dvd shops that used to be aroundin the city and big places that sold only counterfeit DVDs and yet were around for years with dedicated big shops.
I couldn't understand why authorities wouldn't just go in and shut them down. When they were as obvious as you can get

 

[TomVexille]

Personally I think the takeaway from this is that anyone with a little bit of knowledge can actually go and organise these sorts of tickets for themselves for cheaper than these "agents" and within the terms of the associated programs.

I'm also not convinced that these tickets are as good of a deal as the people buying them think they are. Especially with some of the sale fares lately.

 

[Jack_OC]

They stay in business as people don't do their due diligence in the search of the cheapest premium fare...

And as illustrated by gphamor, some people will continue using these dodgy OTAs in the full knowledge that "there is a risk the ticket won't be honoured", even after direct personal experience of being denied boarding as a result of this! I find it extraordinary that anyone would give further business to the same provider after that initial experience, but each to their own.

 

[agentgerko]

As an agent myself for 40+ years I'd be very suspicious about this. I'd wonder first off why the agent would want to use their own points. I'd be wondering if perhaps they used your money to pay for someone else's travel and then didn't have enough money in their trust account to pay for yours. I'm pretty sure IATA rules wouldn't allow him to sell a ticket using his points. I'd be telling the agent that I want normal IATA etickets for my flights, not reward tickets. At the very least you're going to incur huge problems should you need to make a change of any kind during your trip. No legitimate agent I have ever known would consider selling tickets this way. Always beware of any travel agent that seems to sell much cheaper fares than the rest. Apart from a few ethnic agencies that get special fares just to their ethnic region, we all work off the same retail fares.

 

[dajop]

IIRC LifeMiles can be used on SQ. But I may be mistaken.

At the moment, to best of my knowledge, only European destination you can get on SQ in J is IST. Also out of MEL, only 3x week on SQ 247/8 which has regional J, the others all have long haul J.

 

[SOPOOR]

As an agent myself for 40+ years I'd be very suspicious about this. I'd wonder first off why the agent would want to use their own points. I'd be wondering if perhaps they used your money to pay for someone else's travel and then didn't have enough money in their trust account to pay for yours. I'm pretty sure IATA rules wouldn't allow him to sell a ticket using his points. I'd be telling the agent that I want normal IATA etickets for my flights, not reward tickets. At the very least you're going to incur huge problems should you need to make a change of any kind during your trip. No legitimate agent I have ever known would consider selling tickets this way. Always beware of any travel agent that seems to sell much cheaper fares than the rest. Apart from a few ethnic agencies that get special fares just to their ethnic region, we all work off the same retail fares.

I know of a individual who is fairly well known that buys millions of points off people across multiple programs,
they then sell these tickets to people , the people know theyre buying tickets paid with points,

I assume this is legal, however if audited by the ailine, who knows

 

[RoMambai]

I know of a individual who is fairly well known

Indeed. This chap has a bit of a cult following on another forum that many in this community frequent.

The numbers are compelling (for him). He'll buy QF (and others) points off you for 1 cent a point and then 'purchase' a business class flight for his customers which he charges at a discount but still with a significant mark up. For example, a one way SYD - HKG fare he'll pay $650 for the points (65000 velocity points) but charge someone $2500 for the tix. Not bad for an hours work.

 

[SOPOOR]

Indeed. This chap has a bit of a cult following on another forum that many in this community frequent.

The numbers are compelling (for him). He'll buy QF (and others) points off you for 1 cent a point and then 'purchase' a business class flight for his customers which he charges at a discount but still with a significant mark up. For example, a one way SYD - HKG fare he'll pay $650 for the points (65000 velocity points) but charge someone $2500 for the tix. Not bad for an hours work.

if its legit, or they dont get caught,
then they have identified a niche,
I assume finding clients to sell to would have been hard but looks like they have overcome it

I say good luck to him

 

[theblank]

"Fraud" in most Australian states involves, at its core, the notion of someone benefiting from doing something that is inherently dishonest. It is, as a law, left wide open to try to allow for all the scams that humans invent. I am sure that a "luxury travel agent" that buys points from individuals (against T & C's), and uses them to provide a ticket to an UNSUSPECTING customer, who risks a complete loss of money, is getting very close to fulfill the requirements to be deemed something that is "against the law" and thus "illegal".

It does highly depend on what the customer asked for. If they said "i want the cheapest business class ticket to SIngapore" then thats what they got. The travel agent has not committed any fraud.

Now, if the customer said " i want the cheapest business class ticket to SIngapore, that earns rewaard points on my FF" then the travel agent has decieved them, and customer has the right to demand some restitution. but that would be very hard for the customer to prove, as it would become ones word against the other.

The ultimate proof of what the customer asked for, is in what he got. If the customer failed to check that the ticket he received is the one he asked for, then he it would likely be deemed by anyone else that it was accepted as correct.

If the travel agent issued any paperwork that shows the customers FF number and a fare class that is not matching what he got, then that is evidence of a fraud. If it was me I would be at the TA demanding that I didnt get what I paid for.

 

[Isochronous]

Key questions are (1) did the TA ever disclose that the discount was due to use of points; (2) did the TA ever give the impression that the ticket would be eligible for earning points?

 

[drron]

For QF it is prohibited to sell points-
11.3 Members must not require or receive any consideration (in the form of a payment or otherwise) for any transfer to an Eligible Family Member

And the person who sells award tickets is also in breach of the T&Cs.
13.1.3 Reward Flights must not be bought, sold, assigned, transferred or acquired other than in accordance with these Terms and Conditions and the applicable Fare Conditions. Qantas or Qantas Loyalty may cancel, confiscate or refuse to honour any Reward Flight dealt with contrary to these Terms and Conditions or the Fare Conditions and, if travel has commenced, any continued travel will be at the passenger's expense.

13.1.4 Reward Flights are available only to Members and their Eligible Family Members. Members will be required to provide Membership details prior to obtaining a Reward Flight. Eligible Family Members may use the Reward Flight whether the Member travels with them or not. A Reward Flight issued for an Eligible Family Member must be redeemed in the name of the Eligible Family Member as shown on their passport or any other identification acceptable to Qantas Loyalty.

So it risks the closure of both the buyer's and seller's QFF accounts.
AA do this.Has been documented several times on FB.

 

[SOPOOR]

For QF it is prohibited to sell points-
11.3 Members must not require or receive any consideration (in the form of a payment or otherwise) for any transfer to an Eligible Family Member

And the person who sells award tickets is also in breach of the T&Cs.
13.1.3 Reward Flights must not be bought, sold, assigned, transferred or acquired other than in accordance with these Terms and Conditions and the applicable Fare Conditions. Qantas or Qantas Loyalty may cancel, confiscate or refuse to honour any Reward Flight dealt with contrary to these Terms and Conditions or the Fare Conditions and, if travel has commenced, any continued travel will be at the passenger's expense.

13.1.4 Reward Flights are available only to Members and their Eligible Family Members. Members will be required to provide Membership details prior to obtaining a Reward Flight. Eligible Family Members may use the Reward Flight whether the Member travels with them or not. A Reward Flight issued for an Eligible Family Member must be redeemed in the name of the Eligible Family Member as shown on their passport or any other identification acceptable to Qantas Loyalty.

So it risks the closure of both the buyer's and seller's QFF accounts.
AA do this.Has been documented several times on FB.

either this person (the person who buys points and then onsells flights) is very lucky or has ways to avoid detection