Toronto collision: passengers insist on taking carryons

[AviatorInsight]

Anecdotal data from a range of recent evacuations seems to suggest the extent of injury may not be as high as people assume. This is where some recent data would be helpful. Yes, there may be an occasional major injury, but that’s the trade off needing to be considered. Should the health of a single passenger type, who may not even no on board, factor as a consideration of an evacuation?

Absolutely not. The only reason I'm evacuating is because we'll die if we stay on board. There are pax who come on board and are on their own, that they can't even go to the bathroom on their own let alone get out of an aircraft in an evacuation. I was in talks with the Capt on a particular flight where a disabled pax was sitting in the aisle potentially blocking access to a young family of 3. I suggested the pax be moved to the window to allow quick access to the exit for the family. The Capt was intrigued by my suggestion and decided seeing as it was my idea that I should be the one to tell the pax to move to the window. Turns out she agreed and took me up on the offer.

The concept of a pilot, having caused a crash, still having the ability to affect passengers leaving the aircraft is a difficult one to deal with. Whether it’s because the pilot is in denial, or in shock, who knows, but i’m not convinced they retain the right, legally or morally, to further endanger their passengers.

In other cases it may be pilot inexperience, or that they’re cut off from the cabin, that leads to their inaction potentially endangering passengers. I’m not sure they have the right to do that?

Not sure I understand what you mean by the pilot having caused the crash? Through their own negligence such as running out of fuel and crashing into the woods? Interesting scenario if it is. Most flight decks have 2 or more pilots, there is a chain of command.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The issue is that you as a passenger almost certainly don't have as much information as you think you do.

Most evacuations that fall into this discussion are the result of aborts. The pilot has certainly chosen to do so, but he most certainly isn't at fault. He most definitely still has the legal right to call the shots.

I was thinking of Asiana at SFO (not the result of an abort), or SQ at SIN (not pilot fault, but apparent inaction).

The question is two fold... pilot considerations and/or incapacity to properly determine the right cause of action, and whether cabin crew (not passengers) should have a greater role. Cabin crew are in the cabin and can see the fire or smoke. Pilots may not be able to.

Not sure I understand what you mean by the pilot having caused the crash? Through their own negligence such as running out of fuel and crashing into the woods? Interesting scenario if it is. Most flight decks have 2 or more pilots, there is a chain of command.

Exactly alluding to a situation where a pilot error has caused the accident. It might well be that the pilot is in shock, or not willing to accept the severity of the event, and that may affect their judgement in deciding to evacuate the aircraft. The pilot may be trying to analyse what just happened rather than focusing on the cabin behind. And that could equally affect both pilots.

 

[jb747]

I was thinking of Asiana at SFO (not the result of an abort), or SQ at SIN (not pilot fault, but apparent inaction).

Asiana, BA, and I expect EK, were all cases in which there was no decision to be made. The engines couldn't even be running, as they weren't attached. Very extreme cases...but in all of those cases passengers took luggage!

Singair is perhaps arguable. He could see the fire vehicles, and though I don't agree with the assessment, it worked.

The question is two fold... pilot considerations and/or incapacity to properly determine the right cause of action, and whether cabin crew (not passengers) should have a greater role. Cabin crew are in the cabin and can see the fire or smoke. Pilots may not be able to.

You can see what is outside of your window. The pilots will use the cameras (if available) and also ATC, and other aircraft, are a great resource. They also know which way the wind is coming from...which could well be a decider in an evacuation.

It will take time from the point at which the aircraft stops until any evacuation call is made. That time will seem an eternity in the cabin, but only a few seconds in the coughpit. As a demonstration, we used to give cabin crew a 'crash' in their simulator, with pilots running the actual checklists before jumping to the evacuation. If you weren't the one in the coughpit it seemed like ages. I think it was AA where they recently started the evacuation without being commanded...and the first people out were blown away by the still running engine...which also rendered at least one slide u/s. And still they took their luggage.

 

[Ralphie]

If I was being completely honest, I’d probably try and take my handbag off, but I imagine not because of any other reason than I’d forget I shouldn’t. I imagine that my instincts would tell me to grab the bag that’s down by my feet (and I’d probably have to move to move my feet out anyway) and then run.

Overhead luggage isn’t the same, but grabbing my handbag I can see happening without really thinking.

 

[Quickstatus]

As long as there is a mechanical way for it to be opened by the crew there is no issue whatsoever.

Would also be useful in other situations. A crew operated locked overhead compartment when seat belt sign is on especially during taxi would be very agreeable to me

Easy to engineer??

Much has changed since Flight 28M in terms of evacuation design except for the carryon issue.

I think sliding down from the top deck of A380 and B747 would be very scary. I suppose better than dying. Any YouTubes of sliding down from there?

 

[Quickstatus]

If I was being completely honest, I’d probably try and take my handbag off, but I imagine not because of any other reason than I’d forget I shouldn’t. I imagine that my instincts would tell me to grab the bag that’s down by my feet (and I’d probably have to move to move my feet out anyway) and then run.

Overhead luggage isn’t the same, but grabbing my handbag I can see happening without really thinking.

Yes intuitive perhaps, but cabin crew would be constantly shouting at you to not take anything with you.

 

[Ralphie]

Yes intuitive perhaps, but cabin crew would be constantly shouting at you to not take anything with you.

True, but if I had it already in my hand, is it any safer to just drop it in an aisle etc? I’m imagining in the split second moment where I go into my own panic.

I’d love to think I’d be sensible and just drop the bag neatly on my seat, or can leave it at my feet, but I can also imagine grabbing it.

This isn’t a position I’m proud of, just saying I can understand that.

I cannot fathom trying to bring off a roller board in comparison.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I guess another thing to consider is that some pax - like the woman who went through the xray machine in China - might be carrying their life savings on that once a year trip back home. It wouldn't be covered by insurance, and probably not covered by the airline's liability (set maximum limits for cabin baggage). I suppose the passengers could sue the airline, but they may have limited resources to do so and might struggle with proof of the loss.

 

[Quickstatus]

Problem is if one person starts carrying a bag others will too and where will it stop.
Easier to say no bags

 

[Quickstatus]

The risk, in large aircraft especially, actually goes to quite major injuries. Broken bones, hips, etc are pretty serious in older people...are they not (Doctor input required!).
.

Evacuation down a slide will almost always cause injuries. A big aircraft means a greater vertical to come down from.
Often in the elderly a major traumatic event like #hip or #femur can be a death sentence. A broken neck/ spinal cord can be life changing for any age if survived

I believe the best way to survive a emergency slide descent is to have nothing in your hands and slide down with your arms like an Egyptian Mummy.

Leave everything behind. Maximise the survival potential of yourself and those around you. Carry a bag and others will too.

Wallets and phones ?. If it can fit in your pocket and if you don’t have to go searching for it maybe. But get out pronto.

Evacuations are never taken lightly. But when it’s decided let’s make it work.

 

[BAM1748]

I think I'd be taking the opportunity to leave my phone behind!

 

[G00r]

I like to board last because standing in a line of people in an aisle, watching one person who can't think "if I stop fumbling looking for something in my suitcase before putting it in to the overhead locker and step out of the aisle for a few seconds, 20 people can pass me and we can get on our way sooner", and so would rather be that last guy that walks directly to his seat.

I like the idea of locker locks, they could be electro-magnetic based, so that in the event of a power failure, they would release.
Cabin crew could operate them from the control panel (I'm sure there's a proper term for it, Cabin Control System?) near 1L, with a control link to the coughpit if necessary.

This would have the added benefit of 'encouraging' compliance with rules about staying seated whilst the seatbelt sign is on (on arrival).

Per @jb747's comments in 'ask the pilot' thread, I'm sure he won't answer this, but like modern cars, in the event of an event (accident seemed like the wrong word) then the coughpit door would ideally be open/unlocked so that crew can not only talk face to face (which may or may not be better than a phone call via the intercom) but it would also let passengers know (in a single-aisle aircraft) know that the head honcho is still in command ('the pilots haven't smashed a window and run off so things may not be that imminent').
At the same time, it might also save time, in the event that both pilots are incapacitated, then crew aren't waiting for orders that will never come.

But then, such auto-release system could potentially be triggered maliciously.

Another thought, that I myself are not entirely sold on, would be that again in 'event' mode, radio/coughpit conversations are transmitted to the cabin at half volume (so that P.A. announcements and crew orders are not drowned out).
The 'for' arguments being
- It starts the flow of information while the event is still being managed
- It may help ease those who are getting itchy to stomp over any person who might possibly hinder their egress
- Real time information about plane's status (engine's that won't shut down) so that people can start to plan their escape
- Could be useful to cabin crew to help them make informed decisions

Against
- Human survivalist behaviour - If 8 exits are likely to be reduced to 1, will this incite more panic/violence
- Will the same cause people to disobey crew "Don't open that exit"

 

[jb747]

You don't want the overhead bins to unlock in the event of a power failure. You want them to stay locked...otherwise that achieves nothing in an evacuation.

 

[Dr Ralph]

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. If people want to be able to take their crayons I think that this is fine.

 

[Strategic Aviation]

Aircraft emergency evacuation procedures Passengers risk lives by taking carry-on luggage - Traveller.com.au

One solution that has been suggested is overhead baggage compartments that lock shut in an emergency. However, the prospect of some enraged and panicked passengers slamming at the overhead lockers while trying to free their precious gear – and holding up everyone behind – is not the desired effect. It's behaviour that needs adjusting, not the hardware. Perhaps requiring passengers who have retrieved their carry-ons to return them to the overhead lockers of their stricken aircraft could be a more effective deterrent.

 

[Melburnian1]

I guess another thing to consider is that some pax - like the woman who went through the xray machine in China - might be carrying their life savings on that once a year trip back home. It wouldn't be covered by insurance, and probably not covered by the airline's liability (set maximum limits for cabin baggage).....

Funny you should raise that. This morning I saw off a friend of a friend who was travelling with about A$8000 in cash - under the $10000 that attracts Austrac attention, or should - because they were building a small extension to a house in southeast Asia where cash remains king.

 

[Strategic Aviation]

Families getting split up on airline flights a safety risk, report finds - Traveller.com.au

Other [Royal Aeronautical Society Flight Operations Group] recommendations include the locking of overhead bins to prevent passengers from trying to retrieve their belongings during an emergency evacuation. After fire engulfed a British Airways plane at McCarran International Airport in Las Vegas in 2015, passengers were criticised for taking many of their possessions - including some wheelie suitcases - with them.

The report highlighted a 2012 emergency landing of a Virgin Atlantic flight at Gatwick, during which "passengers retrieving hand baggage from overhead lockers delayed the evacuation", and the 2016 Emirates crash landing at Dubai, when "overhead bins were opened to retrieve baggage even though the evacuation had already commenced and a degree of urgency was obvious due to smoke in the cabin and the external fire".

"Passengers seemed to be more concerned with their… possessions rather than their own safety or the safety of fellow passengers," said the report. The solution? "One mitigating option would be for overhead bins to be centrally locked for taxi, take-off and landing, although passengers would still be able to retrieve under-seat stowage items in an evacuation."