The interesting sound of silence.

[Deleted member]

Frankly both parties are in a battle to sink as low as possible. Dig up Don Chipp I say!!

 

[JohnK]

Here we go again. Closing a thread denies both sides to an opinion, so try again. The vitriol seen discussing this and previous topics wasn't pleasant nor was it particularly in the spirit of AFF.

I see the same people weighing in again.

 

[dajop]

Frankly both parties are in a battle to sink as low as possible. Dig up Don Chipp I say!!

I think the one lesson from the last 7 years in politics is that the skill set required for a leader to win an election (at least from opposition) is different to that required to run an effective government (Rudd, Abbott, Ballieu)

 

[Durin's Bane]

I think you've missed the point. This government provides no information about the boats. The tell us the boats have stopped arriving. I do hope you haven't fallen for those weasel words. That certainly doesn't mean the boats aren't leaving, just that they don't get here. Then we hear the government talk about interception. If the boats have stopped what is being intercepted.

Once intercepted the boat that didn't arrive is towed back and those people are set adrift on the ocean. That seems like a very dangerous action to me. Do you think that no one has died because the government doesn't report the numbers?

I am well aware of the current Coalition media strategy regarding border security, and their reasoning for it. And it's working a treat.

I don't know whether anyone has died at sea since the 1200 deaths occurred under the Labor-Green alliance over the course of five years (~240 deaths per year). But if anyone had died in the past year, or any negative information had been received internationally about the welfare of asylum seekers, don't you think refugee advocates and human rights warriors would have found evidence in our globalised media / communications environment and gleefully released this information to the Oz media?

 

[Durin's Bane]

Wow. Talk about irrelevance. Talk about something that no one has suggested. Logic fallacy, much? Many people told us that Tony Abbott is the saviour. It seems appropriate to have them review the situation 18 months down the track. How do they rate the performance of their great solution? That sure as hell ain't a suggestion to go backwards. Still dear leader does seem keen to send us back to the 1950s.

I would imagine most Coalition supporters are disappointed with Tony Abbott and the Coalition. But the current government have not reached the cesspool that was inhabited by the Fabian Socialist and Milky Bar Kid.

So yes, I am saying it could get worse for the Coalition, especially with a few more Knights and Dames episodes...

 

[Skyring]

Firstly I intended no attack at all as Skyring appears to understand.

I didn't see it as an attack, but rather as a follow up to some robust discussions at the height of the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd farce. However, if anyone thinks I am following some spin cycle, mindlessly supporting one party over another, they are very much mistaken.

I see modern politics as being like gangs of bullies taking over the schoolyard. The big gangs fight over who gets the swings and first go at the snacks. Smaller gangs hang around the fringes, anyone who's not in a gang gets the short end of the stick every time.

Seriously, the perks, the power, the recognition are handed out for essentially doing nothing much more than enjoying them. Oh, you have to support the people who helped you get the position, but then you turn around and do the same for the next generation. And if you have a son, you do your best to get them onto the gravy train as well, starting off with a job as a "research assistant" for a mate.

Beats having to work.

That'a what the public service is there for. There is no politician more hated in Canberra than Rudd, who caused so much needless pain.

And we're paying for all this cough to go on. Not just in the salaries, the allowances, the free transport, the generous pension, the offices, the staff and all the rest of it, but in paying for the election campaigns. These people rarely have to dig into their own pockets. No wonder they are out of touch with with the voters. Most of them have been in politics since university and they play the game all through life.

Craig Thomson is an excellent example. Not only did he screw over the lowly-paid workers in the union he ran, he was supported all the way by his fellow gang members, right up to the Prime Minister. At least until the going got too hot and he was publicly stood aside, but privately funded - he knew where too many bodies were buried.

We, the people, are paying our taxes for these people to have a jolly time mismanaging the country.

And these are just the second-raters. The real gangsters are the chairmen running the big public companies. They can run the company billions into the red and they still get their annual bonuses.

To get back to some relevance, both sets are given their little black Chairmans Lounge card.

Er, no personal offence to any CL member reading this. I'm sure you are a most responsible and thoughtful member of society.

 

[Pushka]

In the interest of fairness and balance, we took the decision this morning to keep this thread open. I'm hoping that comments posted on this thread will not make me regret this decision.

Politics is always emotive, and I ask that you take special care in keeping your posts civil.

If the moderator team feel that things are getting out of hand, this thread will be closed (and action taken against offending individuals, if required).

I regret your actions already. How is this thread fair?

If you don't think that singling out and naming two people, starting up a thread "out of the blue' and then accusing them of being unable to post negatives about the current government, when that has proven to be false, then I'm taking a break and logging out from AFF unless I need information for flights.

A shame. I enjoyed sharing my trip reports etc with others.

 

[Moody]

I am well aware of the current Coalition media strategy regarding border security, and their reasoning for it. And it's working a treat.

I don't know whether anyone has died at sea since the 1200 deaths occurred under the Labor-Green alliance over the course of five years (~240 deaths per year). But if anyone had died in the past year, or any negative information had been received internationally about the welfare of asylum seekers, don't you think refugee advocates and human rights warriors would have found evidence in our globalised media / communications environment and gleefully released this information to the Oz media?

Where is this 1200 figure from, and what were the stats under the previous coalition government?

And do you also have access to deaths in custody figures - broken down into suicides, murders and medical neglect?

Links would be nice ......

BTW - I am not sure about the term "Labor-Green alliance". As far as I can see it is about as accurate as describing the current mob as the "Abbott-Adults alliance".

 

[blackcat20]

Firstly I intended no attack at all as Skyring appears to understand. Anyone who wants to bring a defamation action is welcome.

It just seemed to me that the misdeeds of this government had gone largely ignored. Whilst those of the previous government were anything but.

As as for the idea of closing the discussion, I am moved to ponder whether that was suggested by the same people last time?

in any respect my feeling is some balance has been restored and kudos to the moderator for leaving it open.

I'd suggest a lot of the anti-Gillard sentiment was gender based, as much as people won't want to admit that.

I regret your actions already. How is this thread fair?

If you don't think that singling out and naming two people, starting up a thread "out of the blue' and then accusing them of being unable to post negatives about the current government, when that has proven to be false, then I'm taking a break and logging out from AFF unless I need information for flights.

A shame. I enjoyed sharing my trip reports etc with others.

which is exactly how I felt after being targeted in the previous political thread. Seems it's a crime to have a different opinion to the masses...

 

[Skyring]

Where is this 1200 figure from, and what were the stats under the previous coalition government?

And do you also have access to deaths in custody figures - broken down into suicides, murders and medical neglect?

Accurate figures are hard to come by. Here's something reasonably reliable. It shows that hundreds have died, mostly under Labor, and that deaths at sea outnumber deaths in custody by a factor of twenty. It's the Trolley Problem mentioned above, with 20 asylum seekers dying on the track of "open slather" for every one dying under "stop the boats".

The article also quotes The Australian:
"More than 1000 asylum-seekers have perished at sea since Labor relaxed its policies in 2008 - a move it now concedes was a mistake."

One might argue that we don't have information on how many have drowned because the Navy turned them back or just isn't saying, but I think it's an insult to the Navy to suggest that they are either actively participating in drowning men, women, and children, or letting them drown through looking the other way. That view doesn't square with the ethos of the Defence Force demonstrated over the years, and anyone with service experience would know it was rubbish. Even if somehow ordered to commit atrocities or told to keep quiet, the news would get out, because individual members would be justifiably outraged. We're not killing people at sea, nor are we standing by and letting them drown. On the contrary, we've put a lot of effort into stopping that happening, including putting our own people at risk.

We had the Pacific Solution under Howard, where the boats stopped, the drownings stopped, and the detention centres gradually emptied. Problem solved. Rudd's changes when elected altered all that, but to his credit in his dying days as PM in 2013, he reversed himself and implemented the policy which has been shown to be working under Abbott. The drownings have stopped and the detention centres are emptying. That's a win.

 

[admin]

A reminder to all that if you are concerned about a particular post, we do have an established procedure for notifying the moderation team. Simply use the "Report a post" button at the bottom of the post and add a reason why you think the post is inappropriate. An email will then be automatically sent to the entire AFF Leadership Team and action will be taken if required.

I regret your actions already. How is this thread fair?

If you don't think that singling out and naming two people, starting up a thread "out of the blue' and then accusing them of being unable to post negatives about the current government, when that has proven to be false, then I'm taking a break and logging out from AFF unless I need information for flights.

A shame. I enjoyed sharing my trip reports etc with others.

 

[Skyring]

I'd suggest a lot of the anti-Gillard sentiment was gender based, as much as people won't want to admit that.

Well, geez, how can I win?I'm damed either way.

I was glad to see a female PM. In fact, one of the most satisfying moments of my life occurred when the Queen arrived at Fairbairn to be greeted by a female Governor-General, a female Prime Minister and a female Chief Minister of the ACT. Positions of significant power, all of them. Regardless of politics, that's proof that gender inequality is changing. There should be more of it.

My major beef with Gillard was the relentless dishonesty. She rarely admitted any error in herself or her government, especially when it was such a shambles that she was removed by her own party in favour of Kevin Rudd, demonstrably one of the worst leaders the ALP has ever had. It was all someone else's fault.

Secondary was her seeking political solutions rather than practical ones. Her ideas all sounded good when announced, but they rarely worked out in practise. Her Mining Tax didn't raise any money. Her Carbon Tax didn't reduce emissions, and her Border Security caused a thousand deaths or more.

Wouldn't it be nice if our leaders stopped trying to win the daily media cycle and instead just shut up and governed well?

 

[clazman]

If you were to advertise on seek for a politician how would the advert read?

Requirements

All you need is the gift of the gab,
No business knowledge required
Arts or history degree
Strange decision making a must
and ......

 

[Skyring]

If you were to advertise on seek for a politician how would the advert read?

Requirements

All you need is the gift of the gab,
No business knowledge required
Arts or history degree
Strange decision making a must
and ......

It's not what you know - local branches are full of good potential candidates - it's who you know.

 

[tgh]

Simple enough .. We have had some great leaders from both sides in the past.
Abbot has been a monumental failure.
I argued that he would rise to the job and he has not.
Democracy has failed in terms of delivering fair outcomes for all.
The system sucks and isn't going to get better anytime soon.
I'm back to giving them one each….

 

[Skyring]

Democracy has failed in terms of delivering fair outcomes for all.

I don't think that any of the alternatives are appealing. How can we make what we've got better?

 

[tgh]

How can we make what we've got better?
We can't.. because there is such a large group with ,perhaps, limited conceptual intelligence ...who vote for immediate comfort and or reward.
There is no interest in canvassing what might be good for the long term .
Blaming the pollies (of either persuasion) is easy but pointless…..
I guess a lot of people see it as Rome burning .. lets eat drink and be merry because there is no tomorrow.

 

[get me outta here]

When it comes down to it, I agree. Firstly, the royal we the electorate needs to understand and accept that we fell prey to the monster of superficiality that we have created going back some years through to today on both sides by looking for the easy solutions. I know many people say that the electorate is intelligent but I have my doubts.

However, I think some people who do think about, it are pretty despondent. Others wonder where is the next 'great white hope' (as it always has been), to save us with another easy way out. In the meantime, I'm all Right Jack as long as you don't touch my negative gearing/superannuation/raise my tax/benefits I could easily do without/and general over servicing.

I don't think that any of the alternatives are appealing. How can we make what we've got better?

 

[Moody]

.... My major beef with Gillard was the relentless dishonesty. She rarely admitted any error in herself or her government, especially when it was such a shambles that she was removed by her own party in favour of Kevin Rudd, demonstrably one of the worst leaders the ALP has ever had. It was all someone else's fault.

"relentless dishonesty"???? You will no doubt be able to back that up with copious examples. But anyway - I think you have highlighted the main problem with the previous incumbents - lack of courage to maintain the line. They were spooked when the media and mining companies flexed their muscles and dictated policy and approval ratings to the masses, so when the lynch mobs started baying for blood they acceded to their wishes and then were puzzled (twice) when that didn't silence the bleating. Unfortunately losing with dignity is no longer an option and lying your way into government is now expected. How else can you explain the "sounds of silence"?

 

[Moody]

Accurate figures are hard to come by. Here's something reasonably reliable. It shows that hundreds have died, mostly under Labor....

Thanks for this link - seems to say there were approximately 850 drownings under R/G/R between 2007-2013 and between 350-700 under Howard between 2000-2007. Pre 2000 stats are not given but would probably be less and even more fuzzy. The fuzziness has returned in spades so current stats are impossible to know.

1200 seems to be an exaggeration, but in this arena that's the norm.