The COVID-19 vaccine rollout in Australia has begun

[mviy]

They really should change the rules and let vaccination hubs give AZ to whoever's willing for it that's 18+, especially in NSW. People need to be allowed to take personal responsibility. Blocking a significant cohort from using the vaccination hubs means that they won't be utilised as well as they could be. People should be given the choice whether to go to their GP, a vaccination hub, local pharmac_ etc.

 

[burmans]

But for younger folks they have been careful to say if you want AZ you must get advice from your GP, the state hubs wont give first dose of AZ to under 50s.

Well they have been saying that because it's true!

 

[Lynda2475]

Olympic Park is the only state hub that does AZ as well as Pfizer, the NSW hubs were set up for Pfizer.

Az distribution is supposed to be via commonwealth primary care i.e Respiratory Clinics and GPs, there are heaps of those with available appointments because most dont want AZ.

AZ consent for under 60s is supposed to require a proper consultation, that would significantly slow throughput and require many more doctors at hubs, doesnt make semse.

 

[Princess Fiona]

They really should change the rules and let vaccination hubs give AZ to whoever's willing for it that's 18+, especially in NSW. People need to be allowed to take personal responsibility. Blocking a significant cohort from using the vaccination hubs means that they won't be utilised as well as they could be. People should be given the choice whether to go to their GP, a vaccination hub, local pharmac_ etc.

The issue is that the informed consent process for AZ for younger age groups requires a lot more time and effort than is currently done for Pfizer. It’s not insurmountable but would require a different process at the hubs and more medical personnel than there is currently for consent.

There are regional hospital state hubs where AZ was rolled out prior to the updated ATAGI advice I’m not sure what the consent process was at that time but suspect it was the generic Pfizer/ AZ questions that are currently asked at Homebush. They include a raft of questions about clotting and ITP that are not relevant to Pfizer.

 

[Lynda2475]

Well they have been saying that because it's true!

But stating a fact is different to talking it up. There is no campaign asking people under 60 to get AZ.

 

[burmans]

But stating a fact is different to talking it up. There is no campaign asking people under 60 to get AZ.

Maybe it’s the people you hang with. The people I know who are in categories who can’t get Pfizer are all smart enough to know that a recommendation to talk to your doctor about your ‘options’ when the only option actually available to them is AZ is therefore actually a recommendation to get AZ. Even if it comes with the required ‘talk to your doctor first’. I acknowledge your experience may be different.

 

[mviy]

AZ consent for under 60s is supposed to require a proper consultation, that would significantly slow throughput and require many more doctors at hubs, doesnt make semse.

What would make sense is to solve that problem by removing the requirement for the consultation in places where there is an outbreak. People should be allowed to make informed decisions about what medicines they take and that doesn't always require seeing a doctor. Many medicines are available at a pharmac_ over the counter with no prescription.

You have repeatedly claimed that people would prefer to get vaccinated at max hubs rather than GPs. If a significant number of people want to get vaccinated there then we should make it as easy as possible for them to do so.

 

[drron]

Those figures were not part of the article i linked to.

However, 92% is less than 96%, then there is the clot issue and longer time to full vaccination so still inferior choice imo.

That is not a statistically significant difference in efficacy between the 2 vaccines .Your link was to a report of the article in my quotation which does have those figures as it is the official report of the UK results of vaccination.besides note thatt the AZ result in regards to death was 100%.The article does not say there were no Covid deaths in those vaccinated with the Pfizer shot.And then there is the incidence of heart complications which occur mainly in young adults and has been a cause of some deaths.The deaths from the clots with AZ are mainly in older people.

You are obviously unaware of the more complete ATAGI report into vaccines.The period between doses is 3-6 weeks for Pfizer and 6-12 weeks for AZ.The longer times are marginally better.
Remember there is no proof that the use of 2 doses at 3 weeks interval is the best regime.It is the regime that was tested.We do know with the AZ that 2 doses is better than 1 but I am not sure that was done for Pfizer.It would be interesting if they had also done a phase 3 trial with Pfizer at 6 weeks and AZ at 12 weeks to really see if a significant difference in the 2 regimes.

Conclusion.The AZ vaccine is not inferior.

 

[Lynda2475]

Your link was to a report of the article

Yes and you accused me of omitting statistics in my post, which I did not as they were not in the article I was commenting on.

You have made it clear you don't like Pfizer as a company.

There have been no confirmed deaths due to Pfizer vaccine in Australia. A handful of reports of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart) and pericarditis (inflammation of the membrane around the heart) where "Almost all cases were considered mild and resolved within a few days. A causal link to the vaccine has not yet been established but international regulators are investigating this."

COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 24-06-2021

Information about the TGA's safety monitoring of COVID-19 vaccines.

www.tga.gov.au

What would make sense is to solve that problem by removing the requirement for the consultation in places where there is an outbreak.

In your opinion, however the GP requirement was introduced because there are concerns about the safety of AZ for younger people.

You have repeatedly claimed that people would prefer to get vaccinated at max hubs rather than GPs.

For working age people for whom Pfizer is the preferred vaccine.

Also if you look at the vaccine allocation numbers I posted earlier, the states do not have the supply to do this anyway, as bulk of all vaccines are being channeled to Commonwealth run Primary care which includes Respiratory Clinincs, GPs and Pharmacies.

So instead of diverting valuable resources from giving Pfizer at the state hubs, why don't you lobbying for the feds to do no consult AZ at the Respiratory Clinics which are supposed to be GP run? There are still same day AZ appointments available at the RCs in NSW even with the current outbreak. If the feds dont think its safe to do so, why should the state take on the risk?

 

[mviy]

The Feds could easily extend the full indemnity to get the rollout moving. AZ is the better vaccine and with the outbreaks in the country, the risk of dying from COVID is greater than dying from the vaccine.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

My reply to you was wrt NSW as your assertion was that unwanted AZ should go to NSW state hubs giving AZ (which is one site). But you insist on taking my posts completely out of context.



Clearly, because what I stated is what the NSW sate run hubs were set up for. The original ones were all at hospitals and were Pfizer only for 1a, then expanded to some of 1b workers (other 1B likes over 70s who were eligible only for AZ had to go to commonwealth RCs or a GP). The only NSW State hub that does AZ is Olympic Park, the rest are Pfizer.



In Victoria maybe, not in NSW state run hubs, maybe in NSW commonwealth respiratory clinincs. Gladys was clear when they added AZ at Olympic Park, that is was the only state site doing dual vaccines.

Glady had to lobby Scomo to be allowed to expand the state hubs to non 1a and 1b workers, and get vaccine allocation outside 1a and 1b because the commonwealth rollout was going to slow. Other states then also asked for the same, Vic's state hubs were stood up sooner, but Olympic Park was planned first.



No, you have once again taken my comment about AZ being a later addition to Olympic Park and applied that country wide.

AZ has been available via commonwealth primary care channels since March, but when Olympic Park opened it was Pfizer only, AZ was added its 3rd week of operation, hence a small and late addition to the state run hubs in NSW.

Well there you go. I am concerned about a Vaccination Program for all Australians nation wide whereas you only seen driven by your own personal bubble.

Vaccination Programs are all about the community, and not just one individual.

In particular we need to very much to include the vulnerable within the rollout program, as well as those living in more remote locations, and that is a key reason why access of different vaccines MUST be included at a local level including via GPs and Pharmacies.

Fortunately Lt Gen John Frewen’s plan is a national one, and an inclusive one.




However if NSW went down your preferred path restricting Pfizer to just the Hubs it would be a disaster for all those in NSW in the last quarter.

NSW by then needs to be doing about 90K of doses per day every day. The current capacity of the Hubs is many multiples below that (See below). Fortunately for Australia, and for those in NSW Lt Gen John Frewen will be using multiple channels to get the Pfizer and Moderna Vaccines into arms.

 

[RAM]

I think there are some Pfizer places that give priority to aged and disability care (and health care) workers. But at some places its on a first come first serve (assuming the person is eligible).

Given the brought forward Pfizer doses, there would have been a mad-rush to the online booking system (well at least that's what I humorously imagine to myself). And there will be consequently some with double bookings, which need to get cancelled in due course.

Unfortunately, Morrison's announcement of 'brought forward Pfizer doses' is as true as his claim last year that he'd signed with Pfizer for doses (Pfizer issued media release say no Australia had not), his announcement at the post-National Cabinet media briefing that the ages able to get AZ had been altered - implying it was discussed & agreed to at National Cabinet. That was false & despite being given two days to come clean, he refused.

This time Pfizer did not publicly call him out, instead their press release did not confirm what he said and simply restated what they had put out publicly three months ago....

Greg Hunt in early June laid out the weekly delivery schedule for Pfizer deliveries from late June, July & August. The deliveries for July were 300,000 then 500,000, then 1,000,000 then 1,000,000 with the weekly number increasing in late August to 1,300,000 a week. There are actually 5 weekly deliveries in August so total doses arriving is well over 5 million, not the 4+ million figure Morrison subsequently quoted for 'brought forward'.

The numbers outlined by Hunt in early June are the exact same 'brought forward' deliveries claimed by Morrison 6 weeks later.

The numbers are also the same as the updated schedule provided from the 1st additional 10 million doses contracted earlier this year.

Too much smoke & mirror spin causing a loss of faith by the broader community.

 

[RAM]

Maybe you meant “only after the release of Pfizer’s surpassed-all-prior-hopes Phase III results on November 9”? Or perhaps “only after mRNA was demonstrated to be more than an entirely unproven technology”?

Well considering that the egg-based 1930's vaccine technology had failed to create a viable Coronavirus vaccine previously where the risks outweighed the benefits - then yes, like the other 34 countries did - I would have put an equal bet on them at the same time as UQ & AZ, not 5 months later.

The existing vaccine approach (UQ, AZ) based on 1930's methods was entirely unproven at producing a successful/safe Coronavirus vaccine. Guess what one of the side effects was for the previous CV vaccines produced?

 

[Lynda2475]

Well there you go. I am concerned about a Vaccination Program for all Australians nation wide whereas you only seen driven by your own personal bubble.

You know nothing about what drives me and I care not what you think about me, you don't know me.

However if NSW went down your preferred path restricting Pfizer to just the Hubs it would be a disaster for all those in NSW in the last quarter.

In your opinion.

If the states hadn't stepped in with mass hubs far fewer people (including the majority of the front line workers in 1a and 1b) would not yet be vaccinated.

I said Pfizer should be restricted to state hubs now (but ignoring context is your forte), because there isnt enough supply to be diluting with GPs.

If you did actually care for all Australians you would not blindly back a plan that see the most efficient delivery channel severely under supplied, in favour of sprinkling small amounts in suburban GP and pharmacies such that it becomes an effort for people to find them.

Olympic Park does 30k+ doses of Pfizer per week (could do many more but supply is restricted), the 4 new mass hubs in CBD, Macquarie Fields, Lake Macquarie and Wollongong could easily do the same if not for the fact that state doesnt have the doses to give them that many as also has to supply the 25 other hospital hubs.

Leaving state hubs under supplied to introduce new Pfizer channels without sufficient supplies to do so, helps no one and slows everything down. Only when you are swimming in supply can you afford to be lax with where that supply goes, so GPs and Pharmacies should be excluded in metro areas until 4th quarter in favour of the hubs. Remote areas are already leveraging RFDS clinics. Only in regional areas without a hub (there are 19 regional hubs in NSW) should GPs be considered at this time.

Not to mention the plan you love so much also omits work place vaccination channel which is a huge lost opportunity to get mass uptake as is done successfully every year for flu vaccinations.

Its the feds job to secure vaccine supply, they should not be controlling the bulk of the rollout as they are. The feds should supply each state/territory with vaccine based on population (number in each age group). The States should then decide how much vaccine is given to each delivery channel and when to give it to them, based on where the true demand is in that state.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Not to mention the plan you love so much also omits work place vaccination channel which is a huge lost opportunity to get mass uptake as is done successfully every year for flu vaccinations.

Once again you are 100% incorrect.

I have posted on workplace vaccination and it is a channel that may come on board more widely in the last quarter as per Lt Gen John Frewen’s comments.

Workplace vaccinations have been used since the early days, but in focussed ways including:

• Healthworkers at hospitals
• All Vic run aged care gave workplace vaccinations to all of their facilities very early on
• Pop ups have been at various workplaces. ie Melbourne Airport.
• The above three I have posted on long long ago.

It only makes sense to use workplace place vaccinations for general vaccinations once eligibility is open to all (or at least most) ages, and also when vaccines are widely available.

Personally I find it illogical that you object to GP and pharmac_ Channels as being inefficient (which they are not) but support workplace vaccination.



My view is, and always has been, that multiple vaccination channels is the best approach.

 

[drron]

Replying to post 3589 by Lynda2475.

She said-
Yes and you accused me of omitting statistics in my post, which I did not as they were not in the article I was commenting on.
But my post was this pointing out a fact and made no mention of any accusation merely pointing out that fact -
That is not a statistically significant difference in efficacy between the 2 vaccines

Then she says-
You have made it clear you don't like Pfizer as a company.
And she has made it abundantly clear that despite medical experts saying AZ is a good vaccine which can be used safely.
As well my criticism of Pfizer is on it's ethics and business practices not it's products.

Then this -
There have been no confirmed deaths due to Pfizer vaccine in Australia. A handful of reports of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart) and pericarditis (inflammation of the membrane around the heart) where "Almost all cases were considered mild and resolved within a few days. A causal link to the vaccine has not yet been established but international regulators are investigating this."

Except both the CDC and WHO have accepted as fact that myocarditis/pericarditis are complications of the Pfizer vaccine.

COVID-19 Vaccination

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

www.cdc.gov

It says over a 1000 reports of myocarditis/pericarditis after mRNA vaccination. So roughly 4 cases per million doses.Not much difference to the incidence of clots with the AZ vaccine.And whilst virtually all are mild cases a complication of myocarditis is sudden death.At least 2 such deaths confirmed in Israel.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Ahaha. Good to see Federal Politicians putting their minds to work on rolling out the vaccines!

"Exclusive: Australia’s biggest lottery provider says it could run a national Covid-19 vaccination lottery as long as it gets legal approval and someone stumps up the cash.
The pledge from Tabcorp comes as health experts called for the Australian government and private enterprise to immediately get behind a vaccination lottery, voucher or travel scheme to encourage more Aussies to get the jab and protect themselves and their communities.

Defence Minister Peter Dutton said he thought the lottery was a “great idea”.

“The only two flaws which the company has identified is they need regulation approval and someone to pay for it. So apart from that it seems like a sound proposal,” Mr Dutton told the Today show."

(My emphasis.)

No Cookies | The Courier Mail

No Cookies

www.couriermail.com.au

 

[Lynda2475]

Once again you are 100% incorrect.

Nope, your examples are actually state run hubs and pop-ups not workplace programs.

Under workplace programs private employers engage private heath care providers to come onsite and vaccinate all staff. This is not on the plan.

State run hubs were established at some public hospitals under 1A to vaccinate staff with Pfizer, workers from other hospitals (and industries) went to those too (i.e. it wasn't their workplace). The use of these hospital hubs expanded to more workers under 1B and now they are open to the general public in eligble categories.

I can book at jab at St Vincent's or RPA or Westmead or Liverpool hospitals - they aren't just for employees of those sites, never were. They are state run hubs.

Personally I find it illogical that you object to GP and pharmac_ Channels as being inefficient (which they are not) but support workplace vaccination.

Hubs and workplace programs administer huge volume of doses a day (efficient, less wastage due to constant demand) and are conveniently located for people of worker age to get in and out.

 

[mviy]

Going to the city during a lockdown is not convenient. The local GP near home is much more convenient to get to. Different people have different preferences that should be catered for. Multiple different channels are good for progressing the rollout.

 

[Lynda2475]

Its very rude to use "she"

made no mention of any accusation

when in fact you said

So why didn't you give the figures for 2 doses of the AZ vaccine in that study

even though not mentioned in what I linked to,

doesn't quite fit the narrative that AZ is an inferior vaccine though

implying selective story telling

Except both the CDC and WHO have accepted as fact that myocarditis/pericarditis are complications of the Pfizer vaccine.

I quoted our TGA site, if you feel what their website is inaccurate, take it up with them.

CDC has no authority in Australia, but also state that myocarditis/pericarditis are rarely serious and unlikely to have lasting effects.

AZ induced TTS has led to multiple hospital admissions, multiple ICU admissions and 2 (and a 3rd under investigation) deaths in Australia. No ICU or deaths recorded due to myocarditis/pericarditis from Pfizer. So as a woman in particular Pfizer is safer (and still what is recommended as first choice).