Taking kids out of school for OS holidays

[Lizzi]

As a currently practising teacher, I've seen (and am currently seeing) both sides of this. There are students who thrive with the whole experience, have no trouble catching up, and the added maturity they gain from a broadened worldview is a great benefit for them. There are also a lot of students who don't cope well with missing chunks of school, both academically and emotionally, even balanced with what they gain from being exposed to new cultures and experiences. That needs to be taken into account when making the decision, as many people have mentioned.

By the way, for those discussing home-schooling, it is completely different to taking the child out of school for a cultural (or family bonding, or whatever else) holiday. To home-school you need to register your programme and the child's educational development evidence with the relevant department, and have it approved. The parent is taking entire responsibility for the whole education of the student, rather than a school having that responsibility.

 

[Timtammi]

Interesting to see the responses to this. My two older children are grown up with careers of their own. Both were taken out of school in both primary and high school for various trips around the world. We never had any issues with the schools (govt primary, private secondary) nor did the kids have any problems, academically or socially. Of course, we were sensible in our decisions and made sure they did work while away if required, that everyone understood what might be required to catch up on their return and that we made sure they did not miss anything really important (like exams etc). My oldest had an academic scholarship to high school and my younger daughter finished her VCE in the top 5% of the state.

I now have a young daughter (2nd marriage) and she is now in 5th grade. This year she will have 3 overseas trips, all of which require her to miss some school. Mr Timtammi and I run our own business and travel overseas on business frequently. Mostly she stays home with her carer but sometimes she gets to come with us and we combine some holiday with work. This Friday we are off to Japan for a couple of weeks, she is coming with us and we have engaged a babysitter in Japan to stay with her while we work for a few days and then we will have some holidays training all over Japan. When we asked her teacher what work she should do while away she said "nothing"! Just reading, keeping a journal and maybe some online maths activities on her school Ipad. So again no issues so far but she is at the top of her class and copes well with catching up when we return from trips.

As she gets older and heads into high school, we will be careful about absences just as I was with my older 2, but I dont need some bureaucrat to tell me what is and isn't good for my child, I think we as parents are best situated to decide that.

Cheers

Timmi

 

[burmans]

In terms of my kids education, sure I haven't had the training on how to control a class room of 30 little darlings, but that does not mean that I can't have an opinion on what is best for my own children based on my own set of experiences, beliefs and research. For example, we've chosen an out of area school for our children since we feel it is a better school than the one we're in area for. If we'd followed the department of education we'd have simply placed our children in the in area school despite us feeling that there are better schools out there. We've taken the time to discuss things with my childrens teachers, and get outside assistance where we've felt it necessary because as much as everyone involved in the teaching of my children want to do their best, the reality is that my children are simply one of many that they see each day.

To use my doctor analogy again, choosing which doctor to go to and making medical diagnoses yourself are hardly one and the same. The scenario here is not about self diagnosing a minor ailment and not going to the doctor, but going to the doctor and choosing to ignore the advice. I'm certainly not suggesting that parents are not entitled to their own opinions but ignoring clear evidence that even relatively short absences do have an impact on children's schooling is quite another.

The argument that the impacts are overcome by the benefits of travel is a reasonable argument to me (assuming the right sort of activities on that trip) but I do have difficulty with the "it has no impact" or "I just know whats best for my kids" argument whichseems extremely weak against an evidence based approach taken by the educators.

 

[harvyk]

To use my doctor analogy again, choosing which doctor to go to and making medical diagnoses yourself are hardly one and the same. The scenario here is not about self diagnosing a minor ailment and not going to the doctor, but going to the doctor and choosing to ignore the advice. I'm certainly not suggesting that parents are not entitled to their own opinions but ignoring clear evidence that even relatively short absences do have an impact on children's schooling is quite another.

The argument that the impacts are overcome by the benefits of travel is a reasonable argument to me (assuming the right sort of activities on that trip) but I do have difficulty with the "it has no impact" or "I just know whats best for my kids" argument whichseems extremely weak against an evidence based approach taken by the educators.

So tell me why there are 2nd opinions? and tell me why they can vary from the first? and tell me why for certain procedures it needs to be given the ok from multiple doctors?

You want evidence that schooling is not the be all and end all of education? Take my own situation. I am in a very comfortable job, earning a very decent wage (I won't go into details lest a scammer attempts to use that information against me), and yet I probably missed out on half of the official year 12 curriculum to pursue my own projects which I felt where more valid than me learning the intricacies of George Bernard Shaw. To be honest I only just scraped through by the skin of my teeth, and yet had I done the official curriculum I doubt I would be anywhere near as successful as I am.

Of course this is all academic since I am only me, and there is no real control group of me to confirm exactly how my life would have turned out had I played it the right way at the end of my schooling.

 

[drron]

You bring up a very valid point Harvyk.The education system is not for everyone.I know one bright fellow who easily got into University.It bored him so he started doing his own thing.Dropped out and set up his company with a friend.
But now is well into the BRW rich list.
Of course he also has an Honorary doctorate from his Uni as well as giving occasional lectures to students.

 

[burmans]

So tell me why there are 2nd opinions? and tell me why they can vary from the first? and tell me why for certain procedures it needs to be given the ok from multiple doctors?

Well unless you are using the internet for your second opinion, this is still a doctor vs doctor situation. I'm not making the argument that there aren't different levels of ability between doctors, I'm making the argument that Id rather go to a doctor than take my mother-in-laws advice (which incidentally she's very willing to give) on medical matters. That's like saying because because one professional sports player is not as good as player B, they aren't good at sports. Comparatively maybe but they'd still make us look stupid.

You want evidence that schooling is not the be all and end all of education? Take my own situation. I am in a very comfortable job, earning a very decent wage (I won't go into details lest a scammer attempts to use that information against me), and yet I probably missed out on half of the official year 12 curriculum to pursue my own projects which I felt where more valid than me learning the intricacies of George Bernard Shaw. To be honest I only just scraped through by the skin of my teeth, and yet had I done the official curriculum I doubt I would be anywhere near as successful as I am.

Of course this is all academic since I am only me, and there is no real control group of me to confirm exactly how my life would have turned out had I played it the right way at the end of my schooling.

But I'm not arguing that schooling is the be all and end all of education. The fact that some people don't do well at school and go on to do well later in life is undoubtedly true, but is also true that this is fairly considerably the exception rather than the rule. As you note there is no way to have a control on individuals but there is on groups or whole societies. The fact that an individual does well regardless is evidence of that individual only, not evidence across a wide spectrum of individuals.

This is the "I don't believe that smoking causes cancer because by grannie/ uncle smoked all his life and didn't die of it" argument!

 

[andye]

Primary school newsletter received today seems to confirm that the Fairfax article is reflecting official policy in NSW public schools
Attendance Policy from Term 2 2015
[FONT=Verdana,Verdana][FONT=Verdana,Verdana]As you would be aware, the Minister of Education has approved changes to the Department of Education and Communities’ Attendance Register codes for 2015. These changes were necessary to implement recommendations about students with health care needs and to implement ACARA National Standards for Student Attendance Data Reporting.
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Verdana][FONT=Verdana,Verdana]1) Parents must explain the absences of their children within seven school days.
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Verdana]2)Holidays taken outside of school vacation periods will now be included as absences. A certificate of exemption can no longer be granted for this purpose. If travel outside of school vacation periods is necessary the following considerations apply: If the Principal accepts the reason for the absence, then this will be marked L- a Certificate of Extended Leave
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Verdana][FONT=Verdana,Verdana]If the Principal does not accept the absence as being in the best interest of the student and does not accept the reason, the absence will be recorded as A-for absence and the Extended Leave will not be issued.
If the period of absence is in excess of 50 days, the student may be eligible for Distance Education. In that period, the student transfers to the Distance Education School.


Our flights to BCN and UK in June (missing last 7 days of term) all booked prior to this so hope we don't get too much aggro
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[harvyk]

This is the "I don't believe that smoking causes cancer because by grannie/ uncle smoked all his life and didn't die of it" argument!

That's true, as I said I can only give you my own situation.

However I am obviously not the only person whom feels this way considering my own high school effectively arranged a "holiday" part inside part outside the school term. I went on the central Australian trip (basically drove from Canberra up to Darwin and flew back), I know they also arranged a trip to Bali (admittedly before it was the bogan mecca), and they where planning to do a US trip a couple of years later. The school itself felt that travel was an important part of education to the point they themselves where offering trips which took kids out of school. It is for that reason alone that I now have a hard time swallowing the "if kids miss a single day of school they may as well resign themselves to working a meaningless job" line that some hard line institutional educators have.

Edit: As a happy resident of NOT NSW, all this is pretty academic since my kids own school has no problem with us taking the kids out of school for trips.

 

[Moody]

..... I now have a hard time swallowing the "if kids miss a single day of school they may as well resign themselves to working a meaningless job" line that some hard line institutional educators have....

Sorry - who are you quoting there?

 

[harvyk]

Sorry - who are you quoting there?

No one on AFF in particular, just the collection of views which some "old school" teachers I've met over the years hold.

 

[Quickstatus]

was speaking to school principal yesterday. She said as from next school year, any kids taking more than 100 days out of school will require a written reason by principal to Department of Education as to the reason for absence.

 

[andye]

was speaking to school principal yesterday. She said as from next school year, any kids taking more than 100 days out of school will require a written reason by principal to Department of Education as to the reason for absence.

That doesn't sound very harsh (it would be fairly reasonable if it were coughulative through whole of school career)

 

[harvyk]

was speaking to school principal yesterday. She said as from next school year, any kids taking more than 100 days out of school will require a written reason by principal to Department of Education as to the reason for absence.

100 days is effectively a 6 month absence so it's pretty significant, and certainly worthy of asking if the student has continued their studies whilst away.

In all my years at school, I can only think of one student whom would have hit the higher than 100 days. The student in question however probably showed up for a total of 10 days during all of year 8. Most had thought he'd left the school until he again just appeared on some random days. He was apparently spotted fairly frequently hanging around the nearby shopping center most days, so it wasn't like he was attending another school we didn't know about.

Needless to say, we didn't see him again in year 9.

 

[coco50]

This story was in the Sydney Morning Herald today:

Public school principals crack down on family holidays in term time

We're taking our high school age kids (not yet seniors) out of school for the last week (plus a couple of days) of Term 2 (June). All this blather from the schools threatening all sorts of guff holds no water with us. Kids learn more from overseas travel than they ever will in a classroom full of disruptive students and bored teachers.

What can they actually do anyway? Take away our passports to stop us leaving?

I'm sure most people on here have taken kids out of school to go overseas. The deciding factor for us was the airfares. We'd have paid several thousand dollars more to leave just two days later!

As a retired High School Deputy Principal I have had a lot of dealings with parents who want to take their children out of school to go on an OS holiday. I am fully in favour of the school granting leave to children in these circumstances. The experience of overseas travel and visiting different countries and places can often be more educational that putting up with the cough that some teachers go on with in the classroom. There is always the counter challenge to the school and the system (although I would advise not playing this card because the authorities will get their knickers is a twist): if the school/ system denies my child leave can the system guarantee that my child's teacher/ teachers will be there every day of the period we would have been away? How many days will my child not have his/her regular teacher/s but a casual because of sick leave/ professional development courses, etc. Travel can be much more educational than the classroom!!!

 

[coco50]

I also advise parents not to go through with the cough of taking schoolwork for the children to do while away. Let them enjoy the experience without having to sit down and do boring stuff. I f parents really want to ensure some educational benefit, get the kids to produce some project at the end of the trip or get them to keep a diary of daily happenings while away. Get them to speculate about careers in hotel management or travel agency or hospitality. Also get them to explore the world of changing exchange rates and how to manage finances while away.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

was speaking to school principal yesterday. She said as from next school year, any kids taking more than 100 days out of school will require a written reason by principal to Department of Education as to the reason for absence.

100 days is actually just over half the school year. Very understandable in the circumstance. This does not marry though, with the claim that even short absences affect a childs learning. I asked earlier in this thread if there is actually any evidence to support that (bolded) claim with some even stating it's well documented. I note no one yet has linked to any substantive document backing up that claim.

Personally I think two entirely different things are being discussed. A principal having to explain a child missing in action for over half the school year is not just logical, it's also a duty of care obligation. Remember those children are the schools responsibility for the time they're attending (or thought to be attending). I doubt very much that new obligation on school principals has anything whatsoever to do with responsible parents giving their children a holiday (educational or otherwise). Of course it is just common courtesy to inform the school of the holiday plans and I doubt too many schools would be too worried with it (even though a few may be somewhat jealous).

I am aware of a number of schools that text the parents every time a child is absent. It's a great idea and I also know of some TAFEs that contact the employer every time an apprentice is absent. Truancy is a problem. I'm yet to be convinced kids on holiday with their parents are also.

 

[coco50]

100 days is actually just over half the school year. Very understandable in the circumstance. This does not marry though, with the claim that even short absences affect a childs learning. I asked earlier in this thread if there is actually any evidence to support that (bolded) claim with some even stating it's well documented. I note no one yet has linked to any substantive document backing up that claim.

Personally I think two entirely different things are being discussed. A principal having to explain a child missing in action for over half the school year is not just logical, it's also a duty of care obligation. Remember those children are the schools responsibility for the time they're attending (or thought to be attending). I doubt very much that new obligation on school principals has anything whatsoever to do with responsible parents giving their children a holiday (educational or otherwise). Of course it is just common courtesy to inform the school of the holiday plans and I doubt too many schools would be too worried with it (even though a few may be somewhat jealous).

I am aware of a number of schools that text the parents every time a child is absent. It's a great idea and I also know of some TAFEs that contact the employer every time an apprentice is absent. Truancy is a problem. I'm yet to be convinced kids on holiday with their parents are also.

You have nailed down all the reasons for this. Duty of care is most important for the school and it has an obligation to confirm with parents that children (even 17 yo) are where their parents expect them to be. I initiated a scheme in a school more than 10 years ago to text parents automatically when a child was absent. The response from parents (who had been briefed by newsletter) was varied from "why the cough* are you wasting my time telling me what I already know" to "Thank you so much for being concerned about my child's absence."

A 100 day absence would be of concern and as a former High School DP I would want to discuss with parents how children would manage missing about half the year. However, as I have said in an earlier post, I feel the experiential benefits of an OS trip far outweigh the loss of classroom time.