Status Run

[GCD123]

There are humans in the Syd J lounge in the mornings on weekdays. I've always got a decent to excellent flat white (and I'm a bit of a coffee snob) though the service has been pretty slow.

The delightful blonde lady at the machine never fails to greet me & take my order; prepare a great flat white; and wish me a good flight. What a thoroughly pleasant experience. If the other staff in the J lounge were this proactive, we would be singing its praises. After all - we all like to feel special.

 

[serfty]

I guess budgets became an issue.

Difference I have noticed:

• Towels and Toiletries laid out in showers - no need to collect them for service desk
• One (or Perhaps) two supposedly better food offering (e.g. pancakes, Meatball soup)

That's it!

My suggestions of simple improvements to make a difference:

• Better and more varied food options
• Better and more varied beverage options

 

[medhead]

So yes space was - and continues to be - an issue. What to do about it? Build a bigger QP (more plaster walls again, *sigh*.....)? Stop paid QC (I can just imagine the utter outrage on that one)?

Or reduce the freebies given out to members of the FFP. No passes for PS and 5 passes for SG instead of free membership.

QC and FFP are 2 entirely separate programs. As a paid QC member, I get very few benefits under the FFP unless I attain status - I'm a NB and I'm treated maybe slightly better then a NB. Yet the benefits the other way seem to be vast. If SG is the level that gets free QC membership, why shouldn't paid QC get treated as a SG under the FFP. (Rhetorical question)

If there is a problem surely the logical first step is to reduce what is given out for free, not cut off the people who are paying for a service. Yes, the statused pay for their flights, but they also get many benefits from the money they spend on flights, such as priority upgrades and points, which are all part of the FFP.

Paid QC choose to pay directly for a service knowing they might never fly enough to get status. Why remove that choice because, based on the comments about crowds in the J lounge, the statused are overcrowding the lounges.

Chicken or egg?

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Or reduce the freebies given out to members of the FFP. No passes for PS and 5 passes for SG instead of free membership.

QC and FFP are 2 entirely separate programs. As a paid QC member, I get very few benefits under the FFP unless I attain status - I'm a NB and I'm treated maybe slightly better then a NB.

You get treated about the same as a PS. You can use shorter check in lines. You get increased baggage allowance. You get seating preferences recorded. And you get access to a lounge (PS don't get that)

Yet the benefits the other way seem to be vast. If SG is the level that gets free QC membership, why shouldn't paid QC get treated as a SG under the FFP. (Rhetorical question)

Because an SG flies on the plane, and last time I checked QANTAS was still in the business of flying people places in planes.

I suppose also, it's an overall OneWorld benefit. QANTAS would still have to let all the other OneWorld Saphires into the lounges.

If there is a problem surely the logical first step is to reduce what is given out of free, not cut off the people who are paying for a service.

Or QANTAS could go the way that most other in AsiaPac do - no access except for status. You can't buy lounge access for most other airlines (except AFAIK, in the US). Most of the top tier airlines don't offer this option: BA doesn't. CX doesn't. SQ doesn't. LH doesn't

Paid QC choose to pay directly for a service knowing they might never fly enough to get status. Why remove that choice because, based on the comments about crowds in the J lounge, the statused are overcrowding the lounges.

This is debatable.

You need to fly 2x to make Plat over Gold. But there aren't twice as many Plats as Golds. That would indicate to me that there'd be more Golds in the lounge than Plats. And likewise with Silver, and so on down...




Other than certain FFs who are the "status run" type people, the regular WP who is either wealthy enough to fly J/F for leisure, or flies a lot at business expense, would be paying $10-20 per SC, or around $15k-20k with QANTAS.

I suspect that QANTAS would prefer to keep those customers rather than lose them to competition.

In the grand scheme of things, if QANTAS needed to ditch some QC members, it won't be those that are spending a lot of money with QANTAS and who have the option to spend it elsewhere...

 

[simongr]

Ugh not another paid QC vs. OW status debate

Just one point of order - OW status is not free it is part of the price built into the price of the ticket.

 

[anat0l]

• Towels and Toiletries laid out in showers - no need to collect them for service desk

I probably have to check on this next time I use a domestic JL. The last two JLs where I used the showers was MEL and BNE; this was a while ago, but there were no toiletries in the showers. So either this is a fairly new thing, or perhaps when I was in there the toiletries hadn't been restocked yet. (Probably the latter.) Hence I had to collect amenities from the JL desk.

Still waiting to see what people would propose as examples of "better/more varied food/drink options".

 

[medhead]

You get treated about the same as a PS. You can use shorter check in lines. You get increased baggage allowance. You get seating preferences recorded. And you get access to a lounge (PS don't get that)

I really did write my last with the thought to leave it there. Sorry for continuing this.
As a paid QC member I'm part of a different program that includes lounge access. I get those benefits under the QC program including lounge access. It is quite incorrect make any comparison with PS in that regard. Note also that PS get upgrades before a NB QC member. Fair enough because that is part of the FFP program, but this highlights the difference that I'm talking about.

Because an SG flies on the plane, and last time I checked QANTAS was still in the business of flying people places in planes.

I suppose also, it's an overall OneWorld benefit. QANTAS would still have to let all the other OneWorld Saphires into the lounges.

Yes and SG pay fares to be flown on a plane. Paid QC members pay for the lounge access and also pay to fly. My point again is to highlight the difference between the 2 programs. Yes, SG pay fares that includes extra cost to cover the lounge access benefit as noted by Simongr. I pay those little bits out of each fare separately upfront each year, as well as paying the fare including extra status cost whenever I do fly. By the time someone attains SG the extra status components of the fares must cover the cost of the membership that I have already paid. (I'm sure QF are not giving anyway a free ride)

Or QANTAS could go the way that most other in AsiaPac do - no access except for status. You can't buy lounge access for most other airlines (except AFAIK, in the US). Most of the top tier airlines don't offer this option: BA doesn't. CX doesn't. SQ doesn't. LH doesn't

Isn't there this thing that can be purchased called priority pass, or something, that gets access to lounges of all those airlines?

You need to fly 2x to make Plat over Gold. But there aren't twice as many Plats as Golds. That would indicate to me that there'd be more Golds in the lounge than Plats. And likewise with Silver, and so on down...

Exactly. And my answer to the overcrowding is to reduce the freebies to the SG (and remove from PS) who are more likely to be causing the overcrowding. Certainly, removing paid QC membership is going to do very little to help overcrowding. Before the whole status access to lounge thing the BNE QP used to be very relaxed and not overcrowded.

BTW I doubt there are more PS or NB then SG or WP in the lounge. Mainly those that are also paid QC members or using their 2 free passes.

Other than certain FFs who are the "status run" type people, the regular WP who is either wealthy enough to fly J/F for leisure, or flies a lot at business expense, would be paying $10-20 per SC, or around $15k-20k with QANTAS.

I suspect that QANTAS would prefer to keep those customers rather than lose them to competition.

But would they like to lose the $300 or $400 of someone who flys 10 times a year and uses about $70 of QC services and also pays $10-20 per status credit. Compared to possibly losing some business from the people who are possibly make the greatest demand on the lounge. Considering that the business traveller might mostly be locked in with QF via a deal with the employer, who is paying for the travel.

Anway, this really is a chicken and egg agrument. There is no answer either way and there are good arguments on both sides. I'm simply trying to put some alternative views, that's all, and make the point that reducing status access is equally valid as removing paid QC membership.

 

[serfty]

'twas in SYD ...

 

[markis10]

After 9 years of having 6 odd months of QP membership on hold owing to having received QP membership as part of my FF status, I have decided to change to Virgin for my flights with the exception of Perth trips for the year.

I had the pleasure of taking advantage of the offer to visit VBs lounge last year as a Gold FF and also visit the Qantas Biz lounge, to be frank I found the Virgin offering superior in both space and facilities/food in BNE/CBR and Adelaide.

When I look at my travel for the next few months I am also finding Virgin offer better timings than QF on most routes including intra Queensland and down to Adelaide ex BNE allowing for productive day trips, I dont do JQ unless I have to so the move to JQ for some flights by QF has not worked for me. The better entertainment options for $5 are also helping me to tip the balance as is the lack of a joining fee for the lounge that I was offered.

Thanks to the improvement in timings it also means less overnight stays, so the need to battle check in lines for VB is also gone, not that QF in BNE has been a more pleasant experience of late!


Throw in the recent credit card changes and the new points earning options with velocity through the stores scheme and it has become something of a no brainer for me, I wont miss the crowded QF lounges at all when I consider the locations that dont have a Virgin lounge have a nice cafe or similar I can use! Who knows, my next Status Run might be an online shopping experience

 

[AnonymousCoward]

.
As a paid QC member I'm part of a different program that includes lounge access. I get those benefits under the QC program including lounge access. It is quite incorrect make any comparison with PS in that regard.

I am saying that you get treated by QANTAS at a similar level to a PS. There are some things a PS gets that you don't. Likewise there are things you get that PS don't. Overall, it's a bit of a wash. Most of the things are the same.

Yes and SG pay fares to be flown on a plane. Paid QC members pay for the lounge access and also pay to fly. My point again is to highlight the difference between the 2 programs.

My point is that SG make a lot more money for QANTAS than the average traveller. At $600 return SYD/MEL for the average suit, requiring at least 15 return trips, that's $9000 for QANTAS. The profit margin on each of those trips is significantly greater than what is made from a casual flyer.

As such, those types of flyers are far more valuable to QANTAS.

Alternatively, consider a wealthy leisure travellor flying First to London twice a year at $15k each trip. A lot more profit there than then average punter on a $2k fare.

Isn't there this thing that can be purchased called priority pass, or something, that gets access to lounges of all those airlines?

No. Priority Pass doesn't get you into any major BA/CX/SQ/LH lounges (or any other top tier carrier either, except US lounges)

You need to have status with those airlines.

In any case, I'm not saying "kick the QC members out" - let's be clear about that.

What I'm pointing out is that if everyone jumps up and down and says "let's reduce overcrowding" there are two possible ways this can be achieved:
a) QANTAS increases lounge size
b) QANTAS kicks some people out

And if it's (b), then SGs and WPs are far more valuable to QANTAS than the average paid QC member. So don't jump up and down too much, because you might find the tactic backfires.

BTW I doubt there are more PS or NB then SG or WP in the lounge. Mainly those that are also paid QC members

Correct on the second point - there are plenty of those. Corporate schemes cost $160-180/year. And the cost is FBT-exempt meaning companies can provide it at-cost, or offer salary sacrifice, or people can deduct on their income tax return. For such low costs, there are so many accountants, consultants, lawyers, financial types, public-sector folks that are all members even if they only fly 5-10 times a year for work.

Why is QC so cheap for those companies? Because QANTAS wants to keep accounts that buy $300 SYD/MEL type tickets.

But would they like to lose the $300 or $400 of someone who flys 10 times a year and uses about $70 of QC services and also pays $10-20 per status credit. Compared to possibly losing some business from the people who are possibly make the greatest demand on the lounge. Considering that the business traveller might mostly be locked in with QF via a deal with the employer, who is paying for the travel.

Yes. Your example person might be worth $200-300 in profit. I give QANTAS about 10-15x as much profit ($4000-6000 based on $20K+ spend/year)

And when people who fly a lot start complaining to their companies about how QANTAS doesn't look after them compared to other airlines, then companies will change their policies. The people who make the policies have to fly too.

 

[straitman]

Ugh not another paid QC vs. OW status debate

Yep :!:

Starting to sound like the Amex thread with a new version of the same old arguments :!:

 

[anat0l]

Yep :!:

Starting to sound like the Amex thread with a new version of the same old arguments :!:

Some arguments never die.

As will the continuous conundrum about the debatable futility of the existence of the Domestic J Lounges...which then sparked the aforementioned argument.

It's a vicious circle. :mrgreen:

 

[medhead]

INo. Priority Pass doesn't get you into any major BA/CX/SQ/LH lounges (or any other top tier carrier either, except US lounges)

QF are the most experenced airline in the world. Those other airlines will catch up one day.

I finally thought of a joke and thanks for a reply that lets me use it.

And if it's (b), then SGs and WPs are far more valuable to QANTAS than the average paid QC member.

I deleted the rest of your post to keep this short and because it is relevant mostly to debating this point. I don't totally agree with this conclusion. You have some great and valid examples with the 15x $600 flights and also your travel. But then think of everything that QF have to do to get that money. My contention is that QF have set the price so they are making their money either way.

The corporate QC membership is a example in point, QF can make their money but only have to provide a limited service. Reducing the status benefits are not going to greatly effect such a corporate QC arrangement. And these thousands of accountants are still going to pay the cash for the airfares. This is probably exactly why they keep paid QC, and why I think is it equally possible for status benefits to be reduced. (Not that I think that should happen either. Personally, on my usage overcrowding is not really a problem.)

There is a reason that the Defence corporate scheme is one of the cheapest. 50,000 potential members paying $100 a year and mostly flying twice a year for stand down and/or postings. $5 mil of potential bonus cash for doing just about nothing. Even if they drink $50 each per year, that is still a 50% profit margin. Remove paid QC members and that money is lost.

Few PS (maybe some SG) are going to have the power to move their flying elsewhere as the employer would have set up a deal with QF and the person controlling the money is probably CL.

But your right of course, it could go either way.

(BTW I haven't checked but I'd be surprised if QF were making a profit margin of 20% to 30% on flights. I might check that one day.)

Edit: that is it. I've said my bit and if I write any more of QC vs status can one of the mods please delete it.

 

[Dave Noble]

Me, Im happy with any approach to reducing overcrowding which ensures that I maintain access

Dave

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Me, Im happy with any approach to reducing overcrowding which ensures that I maintain access

Yes, so am I.

And so is everyone else who also has access.

Which leaves approach (a) - making the lounges bigger.

Unfortunately everyone agrees with this except QANTAS

 

[anat0l]

Which leaves approach (a) - making the lounges bigger.

Unfortunately everyone agrees with this except QANTAS

Frankly speaking I'm not sure how QF can do this at almost any of the airports around the country. Even if they had the money.... (well, I guess if they had enough money they could pay off the airport operators....)

SYD isn't going anywhere - full stop. Bad enough that SYD is always in the drink anyway with the people of Mascot et. al., but where in T3 (let alone T2) could one find the space to expand the QP?

CBR is probably OK as it is unless they try for that crazy "2nd SYD" plan.

MEL isn't going to get any bigger too easily. Neither is BNE for that matter unless QF buy out some of the shops in the nearby food court. (Even then the lounge in that area would make for a ghastly view.)

PER is pretty damned until they actually make the airport bigger or make a better airport. I don't see either of those happening. I can't imagine how QF are going to even envisage (if this is even possible) a JL at PER. (If it's going to involve splitting the existing QP into two sections then that's crazy.)

A short answer could be to build "up" (i.e. go split level QPs or the like, similar to SYD T1 where the J Lounge is the lower level and the F Lounge is the upper level), or create separate, disconnected QPs (a la CX at HKG where they have The Wing and The Pier, have two QPs at an airport).

Ironically, as DJ makes inroads into the domestic market (due to QF's "bad rep", economic downturn etc. causing rewrites of travel policies etc. etc.), this would probably pull some people out of the QP and into the DJ lounges. Having said that, I wonder if we will ever hear about the DJ lounges having similar problems to QPs...

 

[JohnK]

Which leaves approach (a) - making the lounges bigger.

Unfortunately everyone agrees with this except QANTAS

Isn't there space constraints at most airports?

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Isn't there space constraints at most airports?

True

I don't think I was being clear enough with the emoticons

What I was trying to say is that the only thing that everyone here would agree with is the type of thing that the one group that isn't here wouldn't necessarily think was the best idea to solve the problem.

 

[pauly7]

Frankly speaking I'm not sure how QF can do this at almost any of the airports around the country. Even if they had the money.... (well, I guess if they had enough money they could pay off the airport operators....)

SYD isn't going anywhere - full stop. Bad enough that SYD is always in the drink anyway with the people of Mascot et. al., but where in T3 (let alone T2) could one find the space to expand the QP?

CBR is probably OK as it is unless they try for that crazy "2nd SYD" plan.

MEL isn't going to get any bigger too easily. Neither is BNE for that matter unless QF buy out some of the shops in the nearby food court. (Even then the lounge in that area would make for a ghastly view.)

PER is pretty damned until they actually make the airport bigger or make a better airport. I don't see either of those happening. I can't imagine how QF are going to even envisage (if this is even possible) a JL at PER. (If it's going to involve splitting the existing QP into two sections then that's crazy.)

A short answer could be to build "up" (i.e. go split level QPs or the like, similar to SYD T1 where the J Lounge is the lower level and the F Lounge is the upper level), or create separate, disconnected QPs (a la CX at HKG where they have The Wing and The Pier, have two QPs at an airport).

Ironically, as DJ makes inroads into the domestic market (due to QF's "bad rep", economic downturn etc. causing rewrites of travel policies etc. etc.), this would probably pull some people out of the QP and into the DJ lounges. Having said that, I wonder if we will ever hear about the DJ lounges having similar problems to QPs...

Will be interesting to see if DJ is actually able to get some market share with the 'economic downturn' because up until now the QF Group has done a good job keeping them pegged back... And now QF pricing seems to be even closer to DJ I'm not actually sure it will help DJ that much....

But back on the lounges, I have an idea for Syd.... How about losing the QF Heritage Museum (although it is great!) turning that into the J lounge...?

 

[anat0l]

But back on the lounges, I have an idea for Syd.... How about losing the QF Heritage Museum (although it is great!) turning that into the J lounge...?

Apart from the dilemma of relocating the museum to a nearby place, that is actually a very good idea. The museum has sweeping views of the tarmac.

It would mean, though, that the two lounges (QP and JL) will be quite some distance apart; in theory this shouldn't mean a thing. Also, the museum is probably not much bigger than any of the current individual lounges, let alone the current entire SYD T3 lounges combined.

Perhaps the "current" CL should be resumed into the existing lounge space and the museum changed into the new CL?