State border closures illegal under the highest law in the country?

[bigbadbyrnes]

Everything is arguable in law, doubly so in constitutional law. This is a matter for the high court.

But here's my opening argument;

Section 92 of the highest law in the country sets out "On the imposition of uniform duties of customs, trade, commerce, and intercourse among the States, whether by means of internal carriage or ocean navigation, shall be absolutely free. "

Per Cole vs Whitfield 1988 "The notions of absolutely free trade and commerce and absolutely free intercourse are quite distinct". Sec92 clearly sets out the law for interstate trade, but also 'intercourse'.

And on the matter of what intercourse means, per Gratwick v Johnson 1945 it's the ability "to pass to and fro among the States without burden, hindrance or restriction".

Border closures, (and arguably although less certainly isolation requirements), are therefore inconsistent with the highest law in the country and should be set aside.

No one is talking about it, any legal eagles here explain? There's no room on the news for this at the moment, but if people start to fed up with the restrictions, it's worth getting them tested in the high court.

edit:

I think this analysis will answer all your questions: States are shutting their borders to stop coronavirus. Is that actually allowed?

Short version: if there are good public health grounds (for example states of emergency), those laws are likely to be held valid.

Could be worth testing if an individual could be proven to be not a thread to public health, but that would be the exception. Thanks MEL_Traveller for sharing the article.

/thread

 

[Seat0B]

most of those are from International arrivals all of whom are being quarantined.

Not quite all, unfortunately. We just had an example in Canberra of a foreign diplomat who has tested positive in the last couple of days, but because he was a diplomat, was not required to quarantine in Sydney where he arrived, like anyone else would have been. Instead he drove to Canberra, and may or may not have stopped on the way, may or may not have been doing a home based quarantine, that may or may not have involved his family as well. It is infuriating that over-entitled people like that are above the rules that apply to everyone else. I understand obligations under Geneva protocols for diplomats, but really - the virus obviously cannot tell him apart from everyone/anyone else, clearly does not know (or care) who he is. Selfish actions like this have exposed others.

 

[DC3]

This could go on for ever, borders closed, people in hiding. I am in the vulnerable cohort, by age, co-morbidities and blood type, but see the effort to eradicate as against the agreement to flatten the curve. The target can't keep changing or we will go down the gurgler.

Be interesting to see +ve COVID stats, post large rallies. If negligible effect, then all good. .

Otherwise, all not good, perhaps.

 

[OATEK]

Be interesting to see +ve COVID stats, post large rallies. If negligible effect, then all good. .

Otherwise, all not good, perhaps.

My issue is that we have no standards or benchmarks, apart from no cases. We set out to control the outbreak and give the health sector the capacity/resources they need.

So what is an outbreak, as opposed to a small cluster. Just look at the meatworks in Vic, where there was a strong cluster, but it was largely controllable through the resources that were deployed. Surely this is what we set out to achieve.

 

[Pushka]

So what is an outbreak, as opposed to a small cluster. Just look at the meatworks in Vic, where there was a strong cluster, but it was largely controllable through the resources that were deployed. Surely this is what we set out to achieve.

That is exactly what we set out to achieve. Additionally this cluster was managed amongst younger healthy people keeping it away from vulnerable people so no lingering effects. Trouble is we were too damn successful in suppression and now they want elimination.

 

[drron]

The states need to come up with a date when they will open the borders.Useless to say some time in July.
Last weekend i went to the north west and drove into Devonport.Went to the Ellimatta hotel.They really get good oysters.Now the Tassie Premier gave 2 days notice of hotel restaurants being able to open for the long weekend.The Elly was closed.I checked with a guy who walked out and he said they will open on the 15th June as that was the day the Premier had said in his plan that they would.We have our staff organised to start then and our suppliers to get the supplies to us for that date.No chance doing things with 2 days notice.
And with the July school holidays coming up people need to know if it will be possible to travel.No use giving them a couple of days notice.

 

[Pushka]

The states need to come up with a date when they will open the borders.Useless to say some time in July.
Last weekend i went to the north west and drove into Devonport.Went to the Ellimatta hotel.They really get good oysters.Now the Tassie Premier gave 2 days notice of hotel restaurants being able to open for the long weekend.The Elly was closed.I checked with a guy who walked out and he said they will open on the 15th June as that was the day the Premier had said in his plan that they would.We have our staff organised to start then and our suppliers to get the supplies to us for that date.No chance doing things with 2 days notice.
And with the July school holidays coming up people need to know if it will be possible to travel.No use giving them a couple of days notice.

I think in SA the plan is to delay as much as possible so people can't book July. He's been touting Kangaroo Island so much, spent the long weekend there while the internet broke with the approval for the demo and he's just ignoring it. Pathetic. Needs to realise that in winter time is not the time to visit KI especially on the ferry that causes seasickness at the best of times.

 

[jakeseven7]

This could go on for ever, borders closed, people in hiding. I am in the vulnerable cohort, by age, co-morbidities and blood type, but see the effort to eradicate as against the agreement to flatten the curve. The target can't keep changing or we will go down the gurgler.

Some people are well and truly halfway down the gurgler and I get the distinct feeling that on AFF a lot of people aren't working in the industries that have literally been flattened.... judging by the general lack of empathy...... (not directed at you OATEK)

 

[OATEK]

Some people are well and truly halfway down the gurgler and I get the distinct feeling that on AFF a lot of people aren't working in the industries that have literally been flattened.... judging by the general lack of empathy...... (not directed at you OATEK)

No offence taken, but I haven't worked since lockdown. By the same token, opening the state borders will not make a difference to my opportunities, so no self interest in that way.

 

[jakeseven7]

As predicted by ‘leaks’ from the QLD government on Sunday...

I think the second tier states are going to come under extreme pressure today.

Reopening borders on today's National Cabinet agenda

The group of state and territory leaders and the Prime Minister will meet again this morning to give an update on how easing coronavirus restrictions are going and when some think their borders may reopen.

mobile.abc.net.au

 

[Pushka]

As predicted by ‘leaks’ from the QLD government on Sunday...

I think the second tier states are going to come under extreme pressure today.

Reopening borders on today's National Cabinet agenda

The group of state and territory leaders and the Prime Minister will meet again this morning to give an update on how easing coronavirus restrictions are going and when some think their borders may reopen.

mobile.abc.net.au

Had the demos not occurred, this would have been a no brainer. But with the positive yesterday it has given some numpties the ammo it needed.

 

[bigbadbyrnes]

Some people are well and truly halfway down the gurgler and I get the distinct feeling that on AFF a lot of people aren't working in the industries that have literally been flattened.... judging by the general lack of empathy...... (not directed at you OATEK)

This will sound callous but hear me out; Try to to take a 'lack of empathy' as read when it comes to policy making. I don't think there's a point making someone care about my situation and how this policy hurts me. Instead, I try to make the case that these policies hurt everyone/the majority. This is how a policy should be judged (within reason). I don't expect you to care about me losing velocity points, or even that I'm sad I wont get to fly with my favorite airline; but I do expect you to care that the border restrictions may result in impeded competition, higher airfares, adversely affected tourism in the places you like to visit.

More broadly - the economic hit combined with already unprecedented levels of govt debt will result in reduced tax receipts and drastic cuts to govt, spending - which means fewer hospitals, un-upgraded/unbuilt roads, underfunded schools, health workers and police - all of which will cost lives. If one of your neighbour loses their job, it's sad but not your problem. If a million of them lose their jobs, it absolutely is your problem.

This is a bad policy. And I recon, by now, is unconstitutional.

PS I feel sad as heck for anyone/everyone who has lost a job or business over this. It's dehumanising, unfair and heartbreaking.

 

[Pushka]

This will sound callous but hear me out; Try to to take a 'lack of empathy' as read when it comes to policy making. I don't think there's a point making someone care about my situation and how this policy hurts me. Instead, I try to make the case that these policies hurt everyone/the majority. This is how a policy should be judged (within reason). I don't expect you to care about me losing velocity points, or even that I'm sad I wont get to fly with my favorite airline; but I do expect you to care that the border restrictions may result in impeded competition, higher airfares, adversely affected tourism in the places you like to visit.

More broadly - the economic hit combined with already unprecedented levels of govt debt will result in reduced tax receipts and drastic cuts to govt, spending - which means fewer hospitals, un-upgraded/unbuilt roads, underfunded schools, health workers and police - all of which will cost lives. If one of your neighbour loses their job, it's sad but not your problem. If a million of them lose their jobs, it absolutely is your problem.

This is a bad policy. And I recon, by now, is unconstitutional.

PS I feel sad as heck for anyone/everyone who has lost a job or business over this. It's dehumanising, unfair and heartbreaking.

I may be wrong but I think jakeseven7 and you are batting on the same team.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But BBB, where is the evidence that opening the borders is going to be the magic pill that is going to provide us with hospitals, roads, schools and tax revenue and everything else? We’re talking 10 weeks of lockdown, not 10 years!

Who is going to be travelling? Is it guaranteed that if QF opens 10 flights to the gold coast they will be filled? And then what’s next... flights are going, but theme parks are closed. So the demands will be to open the theme parks.

Some business thinks they can’t do meetings by skype, so we need to open the borders? Is one business person going to generate the tax receipts for new hospitals and schools and roads? A failing business might be thrown a temporary lifeline, but is it going to fix the underlying problems?

If everyone flies from Victoria to Queensland for holiday, what happens to Victorian businesses?

Yes, the impact of CV has been devastating. But there are measures in place to help those who need it, jobkeeper, jobseeker. The impact of opening the borders too early could be even worse.

 

[bigbadbyrnes]

I may be wrong but I think jakeseven7 and you are batting on the same team.

We absolutely are - but I'm trying to not make it about 'teams'. I feel strongly because I'm personally affected by the issue, and this puts me on a 'side'. But in trying to reach a clear consensus and have a constructive conversation, I acknowledge it, and then try to compensate for it and carry on in good faith.

 

[Pushka]

But BBB, where is the evidence that opening the borders is going to be the magic pill that is going to provide us with hospitals, roads, schools and tax revenue and everything else? We’re talking 10 weeks of lockdown, not 10 years!

Who is going to be travelling? Is it guaranteed that if QF opens 10 flights to the gold coast they will be filled? And then what’s next... flights are going, but theme parks are closed. So the demands will be to open the theme parks.

Some business thinks they can’t do meetings by skype, so we need to open the borders? Is one business person going to generate the tax receipts for new hospitals and schools and roads? A failing business might be thrown a temporary lifeline, but is it going to fix the underlying problems?

If everyone flies from Victoria to Queensland for holiday, what happens to Victorian businesses?

Yes, the impact of CV has been devastating. But there are measures in place to help those who need it, jobkeeper, jobseeker. The impact of opening the borders too early could be even worse.

Because paying for those things that we require - hospitals, education, policing etc - comes from GST revenue and company taxes. In order for company taxes, there has to be profit. Pffft. Until we resume acting as a country again thats not happening again. In order to collect and spend GST we have to be selling and buying stuff.

I dont know about anyone else but I am not spending money right now either personally or through the business, I have nothing to spend it on. Just as well as Business is disappearing. Ergo, there is no GST being collected.

I had a phone call yesterday for our Business Amex account - do you know why they called? Because I am not spending money on their card because thats the card I use to pay for our company's travel. We havent booked any travel for 11 weeks now - thats a significant amount of money not being collected - by Qantas. And the ATO.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Because paying for those things that we require - hospitals, education, policing etc - comes from GST revenue and company taxes. In order for company taxes, there has to be profit. Pffft. Until we resume acting as a country again thats not happening again. In order to collect and spend GST we have to be selling and buying stuff.

I dont know about anyone else but I am not spending money right now either personally or through the business, I have nothing to spend it on. Just as well as Business is disappearing. Ergo, there is no GST being collected.

I had a phone call yesterday for our Business Amex account - do you know why they called? Because I am not spending money on their card because thats the card I use to pay for our company's travel. We havent booked any travel for 11 weeks now - thats a significant amount of money not being collected - by Qantas. And the ATO.

Agree with the general policy outlook but disagree with your example.

Company tax is effectively refunded through franking credits.

GST is paid by the end consumer. Through the business process there is a process of GST credits on costs to reduce the GST collected on sales.

Back on the main topic, hope the next meeting of National Cabinet streamlines this soon. Right now we are aiming at a 31 day window (July) which was intentionally vague at the introduction of the 3 stage plan out of lockdown.

It would be good to hear the High Court on this even though it will be likely moot by the time the decision is handed down.

 

[Pushka]

Agree with the general policy outlook but disagree with your example.

Company tax is effectively refunded through franking credits.

GST is paid by the end consumer. Through the business process there is a process of GST credits on costs to reduce the GST collected on sales.

Back on the main topic, hope the next meeting of National Cabinet streamlines this soon. Right now we are aiming at a 31 day window (July) which was intentionally vague at the introduction of the 3 stage plan out of lockdown.

Investing within a company means that dividends arent paid out. And we always, well, until Covid, collected much more GST than we ever paid out.

 

[drron]

But BBB, where is the evidence that opening the borders is going to be the magic pill that is going to provide us with hospitals, roads, schools and tax revenue and everything else? We’re talking 10 weeks of lockdown, not 10 years!

Who is going to be travelling? Is it guaranteed that if QF opens 10 flights to the gold coast they will be filled? And then what’s next... flights are going, but theme parks are closed. So the demands will be to open the theme parks.

Some business thinks they can’t do meetings by skype, so we need to open the borders? Is one business person going to generate the tax receipts for new hospitals and schools and roads? A failing business might be thrown a temporary lifeline, but is it going to fix the underlying problems?

If everyone flies from Victoria to Queensland for holiday, what happens to Victorian businesses?

Yes, the impact of CV has been devastating. But there are measures in place to help those who need it, jobkeeper, jobseeker. The impact of opening the borders too early could be even worse.

But there is no evidence that with this number of active cases that there is any benefit to having State borders closed apart from reassuring those who have been scared by all the publicity.
2009 191 deaths from swine flu in Australia with 37500 confirmed cases-state borders not closed.
2017 1255 deaths in Australia due to flu-no State borders closed.
2019 over 300000 cases of flu,4000 in hospital,246 admitted to ICU and 812 deaths- state borders not closed.

As another Ron would say-Premiers tear down these walls.

 

[jakeseven7]

Queensland folded as predicted on Sunday

JULY 10 is QLD's opening date and we are OPEN FOR BUSINESS!

That means the 3 big powerhouse states will be good to go in a few weeks.

SA, TAS to nominate opening dates soon

WA is the only state now left out in the cold refusing to even nominate a date - but at least the ESB is happening!

 

[cambriamarsh]

Queensland folded as predicted on Sunday

JULY 10 is QLD's opening date and we are OPEN FOR BUSINESS!

That means the 3 big powerhouse states will be good to go in a few weeks.

SA, TAS to nominate opening dates soon

WA is the only state now left out in the cold refusing to even nominate a date - but at least the ESB is happening!

Good lord, a month notice! I thought we had it bad in NZ being made to wait a few days after the decision was made before it was effective.