Should under 3YO fly commercial services?

[Berlin]

Berlin, you still haven't answered my question. I'd like to know how I traumatised my child with taking her flying? Should I take her to counselling? or is she scared for life? you made a bold statement so please back it up with some facts.

There will be a reason why even otherwise well-behaving kids start crying like their life is depending on it as soon as the airplane takes off. I've spoken to quite a few moms and kid-friendly people in my circle of friends and it seems to be consensus from what I've heard that the ear pressure differences effect the ears of infants in a much more severe way than it does on an adult's ear. It also seems to be a very distressful situation for the kids which doesn't surprise me in the slightest- it's often for adults as well! But I'm not a psychologist and only have empirical observation to back it up with. If some proper study proves me (and all those well meaning moms I've spoken to over the years) wrong then I'll happily accept that those babies are just plain annoying full stop.

Trying to find a compromise that pleases everyone: As the real item of contention seems to be my idea to totally "ban" all babies, how about introducing a toddler section on the plane instead? A bit like back in the days the sectioned off smoking compartment in the back (or the front- if it's paid for accordingly, I don't really care)? Maybe even fill it with IKEA-style colored balls and stuff like that- this way the loving parents can enjoy the blissful sounds of their dearest offspring for the entire duration of the flight while everyone else can enjoy their flights without the shreeky noises. Hey- make it the other way round and introduce an "Adult only" area, I'd even pay extra for it! Which is pretty much what J or F often is, probably the main reason besides the better seat and food/drinks for me to fork out the extra money, getting a better chance to avoid crying babies and unruly families. And just to clarify- I did NOT say in my last sentence that all families are unruly but the ones that are, are usually an absolute nightmare to share a plane with.

 

[Berlin]

All we have is intolerant, marginally bigoted opinions.

Don't you realize that it's rather you lot who's completely intolerant to anyone who does not have children by trying to impose your screetching nightmares onto others as if simply putting offspring into the world gives you some special rights above people who don't?

It is really beyond me how this is so hard to understand for some people who are obviously blinded by purely selfish reasons which becomes quite obvious in those posts.

 

[nlagalle]

There will be a reason why even otherwise well-behaving kids start crying like their life is depending on it as soon as the airplane takes off. I've spoken to quite a few moms and kid-friendly people in my circle of friends and it seems to be consensus from what I've heard that the ear pressure differences effect the ears of infants in a much more severe way than it does on an adult's ear. It also seems to be a very distressful situation for the kids which doesn't surprise me in the slightest- it's often for adults as well! But I'm not a psychologist and only have empirical observation to back it up with. If some proper study proves me (and all those well meaning moms I've spoken to over the years) wrong then I'll happily accept that those babies are just plain annoying full stop.

So you have absolutely no basis for your claim, aside from speaking to a few Moms? Ok so how about you say, No there is no traumatising of kids when they go flying, I just made it up for my argument. Kids getting teeth is far more painful for them. Yes the air pressure can affect their ears somewhat, generally on descent, but nothing like a dummy, bottle or anything else for them to suck on 9 times out of 10 fixes that problem.

Trying to find a compromise that pleases everyone: As the real item of contention seems to be my idea to totally "ban" all babies, how about introducing a toddler section on the plane instead? A bit like back in the days the sectioned off smoking compartment in the back (or the front- if it's paid for accordingly, I don't really care)? Maybe even fill it with IKEA-style colored balls and stuff like that- this way the loving parents can enjoy the blissful sounds of their dearest offspring for the entire duration of the flight while everyone else can enjoy their flights without the shreeky noises. Hey- make it the other way round and introduce an "Adult only" area, I'd even pay extra for it! Which is pretty much what J or F often is, probably the main reason besides the better seat and food/drinks for me to fork out the extra money, getting a better chance to avoid crying babies and unruly families. And just to clarify- I did NOT say in my last sentence that all families are unruly but the ones that are, are usually an absolute nightmare to share a plane with.

It's been suggested before. I replied I'd rather have a DYKWIA free zone personally as out of all my flights, I've had more issues with them than any child.

 

[nlagalle]

Don't you realize that it's rather you lot who's completely intolerant to anyone who does not have children by trying to impose your screetching nightmares onto others as if simply putting offspring into the world gives you some special rights above people who don't?

It is really beyond me how this is so hard to understand for some people who are obviously blinded by purely selfish reasons which becomes quite obvious in those posts.

Just remember, once long ago YOU were a child too. Children are a part of society. we didn't just suddenly arrive here as adults

 

[Mal]

Don't you realize that it's rather you lot who's completely intolerant to anyone who does not have children by trying to impose your screetching nightmares onto others as if simply putting offspring into the world gives you some special rights above people who don't?

It is really beyond me how this is so hard to understand for some people who are obviously blinded by purely selfish reasons which becomes quite obvious in those posts.

I see you've read the responses, for example the one from me. <groan>

 

[Berlin]

we didn't just suddenly arrive here as adults

Thanks for pointing out the obvious to me. Just note that they also don't arrive onto an airplane as if it's a force of nature. And jut for the record, my parents very purposely waited until both my brother and myself were old enough before they dragged us onto an airplane which is what responsible, caring parents should do. But that seems to be exactly what people seem to be afraid of: Responsible parenting. I'm not surprised- taking all the benefits without wanting any responsibilities, nothing new. Which is EXACTLY the problem I am pointing out. Dare me!

 

[777]

After reading this thread the only "breeder" i have a major problem with are Berin's parents.

 

[Pushka]

I've spoken to quite a few moms and kid-friendly people in my circle of friends and it seems to be consensus from what I've heard that the ear pressure differences effect the ears of infants in a much more severe way than it does on an adult's ear. It also seems to be a very distressful situation for the kids which doesn't surprise me in the slightest- it's often for adults as well! But I'm not a psychologist and only have empirical observation to back it up with.

Nope. At best you have anecdotal information from a couple of parents. Hardly empirical observations. I have to ask, why do you spell mum as mom?

 

[nlagalle]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious to me. Just note that they also don't arrive onto an airplane as if it's a force of nature. And jut for the record, my parents very purposely waited until both my brother and myself were old enough before they dragged us onto an airplane which is what responsible, caring parents should do. But that seems to be exactly what people seem to be afraid of: Responsible parenting. I'm not surprised- taking all the benefits without wanting any responsibilities, nothing new. Which is EXACTLY the problem I am pointing out. Dare me!

That's YOUR opinion! you cannot say why it's irresponsible to take an infant on a plane. Actually just admit that there is no reasoning behind it, just your selfish views. so what responsibilities do I not want by taking my daughter on an aeroplane? please tell me Berlin...

 

[777]

Responsible parenting. I'm not surprised- taking all the benefits without wanting any responsibilities, nothing new. Which is EXACTLY the problem I am pointing out. Dare me!

Airlines are a form of TRANSPORT for the general public. They provide a transportation service for people to get from A to B. They are not an extension of your house or your personal comfort zone.

People, including children, need transportation. Our nephew lives in England. He would not have met most of his family and his family would not have met him if he hadn't travelled for Xmas this year at the age of 1. His grandmother and great grandmother are not on their death beds but they are getting older and every year you play those odds.

You aren't really talking about responsible parenting at all. You are talking about putting your own petty and selfish concerns over and above the interest and welfare of others. There will always be a difficult balancing act there and always be difficult things to weigh up but you're not even attempting to do that.

If you really want to judge what is and isn't a valid reason for travel, what were you travelling for when you were so aggrieved? If you and kids can't be on the same plane, let's weigh up how important your requirements are and then decide which one of you to kick off.

 

[Blinky]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious to me. Just note that they also don't arrive onto an airplane as if it's a force of nature. And jut for the record, my parents very purposely waited until both my brother and myself were old enough before they dragged us onto an airplane which is what responsible, caring parents should do. But that seems to be exactly what people seem to be afraid of: Responsible parenting. I'm not surprised- taking all the benefits without wanting any responsibilities, nothing new. Which is EXACTLY the problem I am pointing out. Dare me!

Is English your first language? It might explain some of the logical inconsistencies in your posts. Oh, and "empirical" doesn't mean "anecdotal".

To your point here, where is the evidence that it is irresponsible for parents to take young children on to planes? Your assertion, so it's up to you to support it, not for others to disprove it.

 

[BadgerBoi]

Just read the first 3 pages and I felt like I was trapped in a revolving door...........to save my "traumatisation" of reading the other 9 pages, can anyone tell me if it's worthwhile?

It's not.

However I did learn one thing: AFF and FT posters who have children all have one thing in common: their children are perfect little angels when flying

 

[nlagalle]

It's not.

However I did learn one thing: AFF and FT posters who have children all have one thing in common: their children are perfect little angels when flying

Yes they are, as we parent our children and make sure they act responsibly. I won't tolerate my child acting up on plane or anywhere else for that matter.

 

[Berlin]

so what responsibilities do I not want by taking my daughter on an aeroplane? please tell me Berlin...

No need to YELL OUT MY NAME

The responsibilities that come with bringing your offspring into the world, taking care of good parenting and making sure the little one doesn't annoy the cough out of every innocent stranger around you in public- that's what I've been talking about all along. I can only guess why you are reacting with such aggression but it's most likely exactly what I've been suspecting: Your own selfishness has exposed and it's quite understandable how uncomfortable the truth must feel if someone dares to point out that you bear some responsibilities which come with producing children. I truly feel for you. NOT.

I have to ask, why do you spell mum as mom?

I learned most of my English over in the states and last time I checked, that's how you spell mom over in North America.

 

[Mgjdubs]

Don't you realize that it's rather you lot who's completely intolerant to anyone who does not have children by trying to impose your screetching nightmares onto others as if simply putting offspring into the world gives you some special rights above people who don't?

It is really beyond me how this is so hard to understand for some people who are obviously blinded by purely selfish reasons which becomes quite obvious in those posts.

I don't really understand how it is selfish to take a child with you on an aircraft. Personally, I don't think the notion of excluding 12.8% of the total population (according to the Australia Bureau of Statistics 2011 census data) is particularly fair at all. Now, there are almost 5.7 million families in Australia, with an average of 1.9 children per family and out of the 5.5 million households in Australia, 71.5% are family households, who at one point or an other, may have travelled in the past with young children, or may want to in the travel with young children in future.

And you think those young children, and by result, the rest of their family, shouldn't be able to travel by a method of public transport? I really would implore you to explain, for the benefit of the majority (who's households make up almost three quarters of total households in all of the Commonwealth), how the notion outlined in your previous comments is not completely devoid of any ignorance or selfishness, and how the desire for the majority to travel with their young children is so clearly selfish.

 

[Sprucegoose]

It's not.

However I did learn one thing: AFF and FT posters who have children all have one thing in common: their children are perfect little angels when flying

Correct to some degree. WP1s produce perfect children, some defects as you head down to WP/SG. Bronze kids are so so,generally at public schools etc etc, but still better behaved than non AFF progeny.

CL's are generally sterile and it it quite unlikely they reproduce.

 

[amaroo]

Noooooooo, just when the reclining thread (finally) started showing signs of dying an undignified death.......

Some threads are just black-holes that slowly suck the life from you!

 

[Pushka]

It's not.

However I did learn one thing: AFF and FT posters who have children all have one thing in common: their children are perfect little angels when flying

Oh no. I did have a nightmarish experience with one of mine. We tried desperately to settle him but he just wasn't interested. Felt bad for people around us. But he wasn't the one who was traumatised by it all, we were! He was laughing and running around as soon as we landed. We were dragging our knuckles on the ground from exhaustion.

I think it fair to say we all have a bit of a sigh when we see children seated nearby. But other than my son they've all been fine.

Noooooooo, just when the reclining thread (finally) started showing signs of dying an undignified death.......

Some threads are just black-holes that slowly suck the life from you!

You do know you don't have to click, don't you?

 

[Berlin]

I really would implore you to explain, for the benefit of the majority (who's households make up almost three quarters of total households in all of the Commonwealth), how the notion outlined in your previous comments is not completely devoid of any ignorance or selfishness, and how the desire for the majority to travel with their young children is so clearly selfish.

Lol. You basically say out loud that only because you happen to be in the majority, you can tell anyone who doesn't fit that majority to suck up the noise and nuisance that your badly behaved kids make so that you can have a nice life on the cost of others. Just read your own words- you even say it! It's pretty clear to me who is the ones selfish, bigoted and intolerant here and it's certainly not me!

 

[nlagalle]

No need to YELL OUT MY NAME

The responsibilities that come with bringing your offspring into the world, taking care of good parenting and making sure the little one doesn't annoy the cough out of every innocent stranger around you in public- that's what I've been talking about all along. I can only guess why you are reacting with such aggression but it's most likely exactly what I've been suspecting: Your own selfishness has exposed and it's quite understandable how uncomfortable the truth must feel if someone dares to point out that you bear some responsibilities which come with producing children. I truly feel for you. NOT.

Yes, and that's what the majority of parents do Berlin. There are always exceptions to the norm. And please don't lecture me on "responsibilities" of children. I know it a lot better than you do or ever will. I take responsibility with my child wherever she is. Again like the majority of parents do Berlin. It's a pity the parents of the DYKWIA adults I see on flights don't take responsibility for them!