Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airline?

[Alanslegal]

and most of us have Apple products that are made by (near) slave labour, yet we still buy them!

 

[harvyk]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

This whole discussion reminds me of a few years ago when I was in the US for memorial day. I was invited to dinner by some of the locals I met that day (I make friends easily OS ). Whilst at dinner I was asked how the world viewed the US when it came to things like the Iraq war and their foreign policy in general. Now at this point I had no idea if they where republicans \ democrats \ pro war \ anti war, so I gave the most diplomatic answer I had ever given in my life, which went something like this -

"The way I see it, the government and the people are two separate things. Governments may or may not actually represent the wishes of the people, but in either way what the government does, should not reflect on the people of the country"

Now obviously they liked that answer because I was not shot, and in fact they continued buying me beers for the rest of the night. (yes I was quite drunk at the end) .

Basically what the official actions of a government are, should not reflect on the people of that country. Taking it back to our own country there are things Julia ( \ Rudd and Howard when they were PM) does which I do not agree with. I hope that when I travel I am not judged because "Australia did this", because who I am and what I believe, don't not necessarily coincide with what the gov't of the day believes, so why should I be penalised?

So would I refuse to travel to a certain country (or use an airline of that country) just because I don't believe what the gov't is doing, absolutely not. Because it's rarely the people of that country (who I am likely to meet and deal with) who agree 100% with what the gov'ts of those nations are doing.

 

[drron]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

Though with the UAE airlines they are part of the Government.

 

[harvyk]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

Though with the UAE airlines they are part of the Government.

True but even if the gov't is evil, does that make the cap't of that plane evil, what about the FA's? What about other products which we use on a daily basis which are linked to evil organisations? Just thinking about the AWB scandal a few years ago (basically directing money to the enemy), should we now stop eating any wheat product made in Australia as a result?

 

[drron]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

True but even if the gov't is evil, does that make the cap't of that plane evil, what about the FA's? What about other products which we use on a daily basis which are linked to evil organisations? Just thinking about the AWB scandal a few years ago (basically directing money to the enemy), should we now stop eating any wheat product made in Australia as a result?

But here is where the argument goes in circles.The AWB saga(on known evidence which is of course suspect) it was a case of individuals being naughty,maybe the govt. Agency but not the government.
But we as medhead says all have to make an individual assessment as to where our moral line is.In the case of Bahrain and Syria at the present I have drawn that line.But I willingly fly on AA even though the American government sanctions extra judicial assasinations.So I am putting my self interest(miles,status etc) before other peoples lives.I am willingly to bet at some point we all do that.

 

[The Rok]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I have no idea what you differ about

I said it is a moral choice for us all to make. I did leave off the word, individually. Basically it is an individual choice for everyone to decide if they let employment conditions in certain countries determine their behaviour. In the same way that I have invested in gambling despite the moral questions involved and the views of SWMBO. I have made my own individual moral choice.

I certainly did not suggest that we all should put the moral stance of any government as our primary decider. Again that is a question for each individual. Some people do and some don't.

I am sorry but I cannot accept you wish to differ with this position, because it feels fundamentally illogical. Do you really feel that ethical questions are not a matter of individual choice, as I tried to express? (however poorly)

Or maybe you differ over employment in the mining industry. The ABS tells me the whole mining industry employed 135,000 in 2008/09. So BHP and Rio cannot account for hundreds of thousands of jobs.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

Yes, it was the employment figure I was referring to. I named Rio and BHP as they were the first to come to mind. I am not about to dispute the employment stats of an industry. Sorry for getting it wrong.

 

[medhead]

Yes, it was the employment figure I was referring to. I named Rio and BHP as they were the first to come to mind. I am not about to dispute the employment stats of an industry. Sorry for getting it wrong.

Ah ok. Please ignore my other dribbling then.

I only mentioned direct mining employment because I think it is surprising how few people are actually involved in such a big part of the economy. (not as a correction) I'm sure if we get into supporting employment and not just direct employment it'd get close to the numbers you mentioned.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

there are some state airlines I would not fly... air Zimbabwe is one, south African airways during apartheid was another example.

but the come to think of it... how many airlines would that leave you able to fly?

air pacific? (given their governments complete removal of workers' rights), a Burmese airline?

do you fly an airline from a country whose population has voted in a government which commits potential human rights violations? such a building in settlement areas, or treats its indigenous populations badly?

 

[scaredeycat]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

My family and I flew Qatar in J a few years ago to Europe. I hadn't even heard of the airline when we booked, but the price was a bargain and a friend (an engineer working for J*) assured me that they had an excellent reputation. The flight was great, new aircraft, outstanding food and service, Mrs Cat and kittens all felt like rock stars. It was only when we were sitting in the lounge in Doha that it really dawned on me that the bargain price simply reflected the fact that costs were low partly due to slave labour employment conditions. The loo, for example, was staffed by subcontinentals whose job seemed to consist of flushing and scrubbing not once but three times everyone used one. Everywhere you looked there was a servant seemingly ready to attend to your every whim. How much were they being paid? I know in the USA the minimal wage is ridiculously low compared to Australia, but I suspect that even that would be generous compared to pay rates in the Gulf. Ever since I've ignored the Arab carriers and have decided to stick to OW if possible on principle. Perhaps it's simple and naive (I'm typing this on an iPad and I acknowledge the point about cheap Chinese labour) but I figure I should draw the line somewhere...

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

those 'subcontinentals' as you call them are making a lot more money as foreign workers than they ever would in their own country. thats why they do it. they make enough money to buy family housing, food and education for their families.

are you going to stay away from jetstar or qantas who employ foreign cabin crew for less than their Australian counterpart? if not, why not? you can't endorse qantas paying less but not be happy with Qatar paying their staff less...

edited to add that lower wages for foreign staff also apply to most shipping lines, with crew from se Asian nations... so that rules out buying almost any imported goods that are not shipped by air... it also rules out most clothes unless they are made in Australia... and the list goes on...

 

[medhead]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

those 'subcontinentals' as you call them are making a lot more money as foreign workers than they ever would in their own country. thats why they do it. they make enough money to buy family housing, food and education for their families.

are you going to stay away from jetstar or qantas who employ foreign cabin crew for less than their Australian counterpart? if not, why not? you can't endorse qantas paying less but not be happy with Qatar paying their staff less...

edited to add that lower wages for foreign staff also apply to most shipping lines, with crew from se Asian nations... so that rules out buying almost any imported goods that are not shipped by air... it also rules out most clothes unless they are made in Australia... and the list goes on...

I know you replied to someone who mentioned the low pay. But for me pay is not the issue. It is more the rape, abuse and torture, really.

Reading of "subcontentials" flushing toilets, reminded me of the loo in Europe. Particularly one in Hungary that seem to have 3 generations of the same family living in their, eating their lunch while customers went about their business.

 

[scaredeycat]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I know you replied to someone who mentioned the low pay. But for me pay is not the issue. It is more the rape, abuse and torture, really.

You are absolutely right. I think what the undercurrent of my thoughts was that in Arab society much more so than our own there is a foreign subclass whose role is to perform menial tasks beneath the dignity of the locals. I know it's a phenomenon found in plenty of other societies, but at least Australian workers enjoy decent award conditions and I would prefer to support companies that treat their employees fairly. Obviously this is opening up a whole new can of worms (me and my big mouth)...

 

[medhead]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

You are absolutely right. I think what the undercurrent of my thoughts was that in Arab society much more so than our own there is a foreign subclass whose role is to perform menial tasks beneath the dignity of the locals. I know it's a phenomenon found in plenty of other societies, but at least Australian workers enjoy decent award conditions and I would prefer to support companies that treat their employees fairly. Obviously this is opening up a whole new can of worms (me and my big mouth)...

I'm not really concerned about employment/award conditions, provided they are within the laws of whatever country is involved. But I am concerned about illegal treatment, and immoral abuses of people.

 

[harvyk]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I'm not really concerned about employment/award conditions, provided they are within the laws of whatever country is involved. But I am concerned about illegal treatment, and immoral abuses of people.

Not that I disagree with you, but you would have no problem dealing directly with a company who runs sweatshop style conditions (eg long hours, no breaks, 7 days a week for basically no pay) just because it's "legal" for them to treat their workers like that?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I'm not really concerned about employment/award conditions, provided they are within the laws of whatever country is involved. But I am concerned about illegal treatment, and immoral abuses of people.

Thre are instances of this in just about every country... even in Australia we have workplace bullying (apprentices spring to mind), unsafe work places, workplaces such as the army where cadets film other cadets engaging in sexual activity and post it on line or have facebook pages promoting homophobic sentiments. We have cab drivers working for a few dollars an hour. Sexual innuendo and harrassment in the owrkplace. The list goes on.

I am not condoning actions of bad employers in any way... just that to pick on isolated incidents and tar all nationals with the same brush is perhaps a bit harsh.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

See I don't see it as productive to get on too high a moral ground as it will result in never flying any airline or purchasing any product.

I do however see some basic western civil rights as just that - "basic".

And TBH - outside of this forum - I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of pax embracing ME airlines have absolutely no idea that they themselves would not have the standard basic rights when in the sandbox.........

My advice to them is always the same - if you have to fly these airlines - don't leave the lounge during your transit.

 

[drron]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

Then of course there are issues that most of us are unaware of.Bhutan being one case.We all hear about gross national happiness but not all are able to enjoy it.I read of this issue whilst in Japan recently.Here is a follow up article-
Bhutan royals trip masks rights issues | The Japan Times Online

According to the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees' website, Bhutan toughened its nationalistic policy in the 1980s, forcing tens of thousands of nationals of Nepalese descent to leave the country and turned them into refugees.
Most of those who were forced to leave Bhutan sought asylum in Nepal. As of December 2010, the number of refugees from Bhutan stood at around 76,100, of whom some 74,500 lived in Nepal, UNHCR spokeswoman Yuki Moriya told The Japan Times recently.
"Whenever I hear about Bhutan's GNH, I feel really strange," Moriya said.

 

[medhead]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

Not that I disagree with you, but you would have no problem dealing directly with a company who runs sweatshop style conditions (eg long hours, no breaks, 7 days a week for basically no pay) just because it's "legal" for them to treat their workers like that?

I think I have already said that this thread is about a ethical choice we all have to make individually. I say the same about other situations and reserve the right to pass judgement on a case by case basis should they arise.

Thre are instances of this in just about every country... even in Australia we have workplace bullying (apprentices spring to mind), unsafe work places, workplaces such as the army where cadets film other cadets engaging in sexual activity and post it on line or have facebook pages promoting homophobic sentiments. We have cab drivers working for a few dollars an hour. Sexual innuendo and harrassment in the owrkplace. The list goes on.

I am not condoning actions of bad employers in any way... just that to pick on isolated incidents and tar all nationals with the same brush is perhaps a bit harsh.

The isolated incidents you mention hardly compare in severity to isolated incidents of rape and torture. Cab drivers should be able to earn more than a few dollars an hour - $8 to $12.

 

[wilco]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I am sorry but I cannot accept you wish to differ with this position, because it feels fundamentally illogical. Do you really feel that ethical questions are not a matter of individual choice, as I tried to express? (however poorly)

Or maybe you differ over employment in the mining industry. The ABS tells me the whole mining industry employed 135,000 in 2008/09. So BHP and Rio cannot account for hundreds of thousands of jobs.

Lucky for you, you dont have to accept a single thing....

In my book 135,000 is in fact a hundred of thousands, but again, whatever floats your boat.

 

[medhead]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

Nice way to put a couple of hundred thousand people out of work.

Lucky for you, you dont have to accept a single thing....

In my book 135,000 is in fact a hundred of thousands, but again, whatever floats your boat.

In may be a hundred thousand, but it is not a couple of hundred thousand.

Seriously......



Massive apology to The Rok for raising this again.