SEQ go card Fare Review

[anat0l]

https://haveyoursay.translink.com.au/seq-fare-review

Fare changes to be introduced January 2017:

• Reduced fares for all zones including reducing the cost of one zone local trips to $3.20 (adult go card)
• Reduced number of zones from 23 to eight wider zones. Basically, almost every set of two zones will be merged into one new zone.
• Weekday morning off-peak period extended to 6am. For those of us who have to get to work and start really, really, really early, I guess that means a potentially lower fare.
• Free weekend travel for children aged 5-14 travelling on a child go card
• Instead of 9 journeys per week and then free, it will be replaced with a new bonus, which is after 8 journeys every subsequent journey is 50%. The Newman government apparently wanted to get rid of the 9 journey bonus for a while, which had cost the system so much money, particularly from people "farming" a free fare at the beginning of the week by taking lots of short pointless trips.
  Seniors and pensioners on the correct go card will still have the free travel for the rest of the day after two journeys on that day.

The pundits have apparently done that math and nearly everyone - or, "everyone" - will be set to save money under the new scheme. Some simplistic analysis by a media company seems to show that people will save a minimum 4%, and can be as high as about 35%.

Conversely, conservative government estimates show that it's going to cost the government a lot under the new scheme. The only hope is that patronage will go up to make up some of the difference.

I'm somewhat ambivalent about the changes, even though I'm supposed to be saving about 25% normally. But if the changes are unsustainable to the government coffers, that can't be good at all.

News article here: Palaszczuk announces major public transport overhaul

 

[pangwen]

https://haveyoursay.translink.com.au/seq-fare-review

Fare changes to be introduced January 2017:

• Reduced fares for all zones including reducing the cost of one zone local trips to $3.20 (adult go card)
• Reduced number of zones from 23 to eight wider zones. Basically, almost every set of two zones will be merged into one new zone.
• Weekday morning off-peak period extended to 6am. For those of us who have to get to work and start really, really, really early, I guess that means a potentially lower fare.
• Free weekend travel for children aged 5-14 travelling on a child go card
• Instead of 9 journeys per week and then free, it will be replaced with a new bonus, which is after 8 journeys every subsequent journey is 50%. The Newman government apparently wanted to get rid of the 9 journey bonus for a while, which had cost the system so much money, particularly from people "farming" a free fare at the beginning of the week by taking lots of short pointless trips.
  Seniors and pensioners on the correct go card will still have the free travel for the rest of the day after two journeys on that day.

The pundits have apparently done that math and nearly everyone - or, "everyone" - will be set to save money under the new scheme. Some simplistic analysis by a media company seems to show that people will save a minimum 4%, and can be as high as about 35%.

Conversely, conservative government estimates show that it's going to cost the government a lot under the new scheme. The only hope is that patronage will go up to make up some of the difference.

I'm somewhat ambivalent about the changes, even though I'm supposed to be saving about 25% normally. But if the changes are unsustainable to the government coffers, that can't be good at all.

News article here: Palaszczuk announces major public transport overhaul

A good move I think - what the articles don't mention is the cost (now avoided) of people excessively gaming the old 9-then-free system, so the "headline" costs of the new system should be offset somewhat.

Hopefully this does increase PT usage, they've already shown that massive increases in fares to recuperate costs doesn't work.

 

[BillytheFIsh]

I deliberately bought within walking distance to the SE Busway, as it will be great as the kids get older, but my wife and I can't be bothered catching the bus at the moment when it costs ~$18/day v ~$17/day for a dedicated car park. That doesn't take into account fuel and running costs, though. I don't mind the bus, but that extra cost seems a decent price to pay for convenience/privacy.

My standard peak ticket will go from $4.66 to $3.90. Once the glut of cheap CBD parking we have at the moment dries up, being under $4/trip I am more likely to jump on the bus I reckon.

 

[JohnK]

Not good for me. I benefitted from the 9 trips and then free. Now going to cost a lot more.

Not sure how they calculate that everyone will be saving.

 

[anat0l]

Not sure how they calculate that everyone will be saving.

Well the naive implementation would be assuming the typical behaviour is simply two zone n to zone 1 trips, per day, five days a week, i.e. the typical worker with not much else on.

Another way they might have done it is get the trip histories of a random swathe of go cards, run them through a machine which uses the new system, and comparing the cost against the old one.

The change from "9 then free" will likely negatively affect those who "farm" a free ride near the beginning of the week, but those are the kinds of people that they were trying to target anyway. I wonder if you could still "farm" cheap rides by going for your 8 journeys quickly, which makes the rest of the week 50% off (probably doesn't work but I haven't calculated it).

The other people affected will be those who genuinely make lots of journeys in a week. There can't be many of them (because the one hour window to split a journey makes it difficult to squeeze lots of journeys in one day). The other lot will be those who take advantage of the free trips to take longer trips than their normal route, e.g. workers who commute during the week, then decide to head to the Gold Coast on the weekend.

 

[pangwen]

Not good for me. I benefitted from the 9 trips and then free. Now going to cost a lot more.

Not sure how they calculate that everyone will be saving.

The ads don't say everyone will be saving, only 93%. I am led to believe that they have calculated this figure using their database of go card trips.

Fwiw, I'll be saving quite a lot even though I used to take advantage of lunchtime trips early in the week. The 9 then free was unsustainable, the game was always going to be up sooner or later (especially since Sydney got rid of their equivalent).

 

[moa999]

The dumped Sydney proposal of most expensive 10 (or 8 or 9)was imho much better... This proposal could mean substantial increases for those without cars who rely on public transport for 10+ journeys a week.

Overall fare reductions are good (always found Brisbane to be quite expensive).

The collapse of zones is (imho) silly. Sydney's distance based system is much better particularly for those close to zone boundaries.. zones are a hangover from paper based systems.

And once again another government without the gumption to reduce benefits to seniors despite independent advice to do so

 

[anat0l]

The dumped Sydney proposal of most expensive 10 (or 8 or 9)was imho much better... This proposal could mean substantial increases for those without cars who rely on public transport for 10+ journeys a week.

Does this mean that in a week, you only pay for the 10 most expensive journeys and the rest at regular (or whatever chosen discount level)? How would that be implemented in terms of real-time crediting? Would there have to be some sort of rebate system at the end of the week (e.g. pay for all trips as normal, but then at the end of the week you are credited something depending on the trips you have made)?

It's an interesting scheme, and one I've never heard of before. It would mean that any given patron would have to have sufficient funds (or use the automatic top up methods) during the entire week to pay for all trips at full price.

The collapse of zones is (imho) silly. Sydney's distance based system is much better particularly for those close to zone boundaries.. zones are a hangover from paper based systems.

I don't understand the difference. The idea with concentric circles of zones is to approximate distances into blocks. I think I'm missing your point, except I do get that charging the same for someone on the edge of, say, zone 3 travelling to zone 1, compared to someone who lived on the zone 3/4 border travelling to zone 1, seems unjust. But then how precise do you go when it comes to computing the distance-based charge.

There are a couple of "workarounds" for this in some systems to account for very short trips that cross zones. For example, I believe Transperth has a fare called "two section", which is designated for trips of 3.2 km or less, even if it crosses zones. In the mobilis system in the canton of Vaud in Switzerland, there was a fare called "short journey" which allowed travel of up to three stops from the location where the ticket was purchased, again, irrespective of crossing zones.

And once again another government without the gumption to reduce benefits to seniors despite independent advice to do so

It wouldn't be a very popular government if they were to reduce benefits to seniors. I'm unaware of what the independent advice said about this, though I would harbour a guess that all such independent consultants are not baby boomers, nor about the retire themselves. Given that the baby boomers are on the brink of retiring en masse and with enough controversy about whether there's enough social security to support them all (let alone the counter arguments abounding such as disproportionate social security given to asylum seekers etc.), I don't think taking that kind of advice would go down rather well.

It may have been more marked not to remove such a benefit under the older fare structure where fares were higher; in the new one, who knows. And part of the idea in the new system is that other people who are in certain social security situations will be able to access concession fares which are currently unable to do so.

 

[moa999]

Does this mean that in a week, you only pay for the 10 most expensive journeys and the rest at regular (or whatever chosen discount level)? How would that be implemented in terms of real-time crediting? Would there have to be some sort of rebate system at the end of the week (e.g. pay for all trips as normal, but then at the end of the week you are credited something depending on the trips you have made)?

It's an interesting scheme, and one I've never heard of before. It would mean that any given patron would have to have sufficient funds (or use the automatic top up methods) during the entire week to pay for all trips at full price.

Correct. The NSW IPART proposal had a rebate (essentially a credit top-up put through at the end of the week).. For the small number of people who took >10 journeys a week - yes it meant you had to have sufficient funds... But given the number of people in NSW who use to be monthlies, quaterlies or annuals don't see that as a massive issue.

The final and draft reports are well worth a read
IPART - Public Transport Fares in Sydney and Surrounds

I don't understand the difference. The idea with concentric circles of zones is to approximate distances into blocks. I think I'm missing your point, except I do get that charging the same for someone on the edge of, say, zone 3 travelling to zone 1, compared to someone who lived on the zone 3/4 border travelling to zone 1, seems unjust. But then how precise do you go when it comes to computing the distance-based charge.

There are a couple of "workarounds" for this in some systems to account for very short trips that cross zones. For example, I believe Transperth has a fare called "two section", which is designated for trips of 3.2 km or less, even if it crosses zones. In the mobilis system in the canton of Vaud in Switzerland, there was a fare called "short journey" which allowed travel of up to three stops from the location where the ticket was purchased, again, irrespective of crossing zones.

Most PT systems work roughly on paying more for increasing distance as that is where the cost is - time, fuel etc... In the days of paper ticketing a zonal system was a simple workaround compared to complicated lookup tables, particularly for buses with thousands of stops. But a smartcard with stop co-ordinates for each stop built into station readers or bus systems can calculate exact distance in milliseconds.
The downfall of zones is for people near the zone boundaries.
eg. in the proposed Brisbane system a person living just inside Zone 2 might pay a 2-zone fare to travel 200m (crossing into zone 1), yet another person using routes that skirt around the concentric circle (granted not many in Brisbane) pays 1-zone for say 10km.
Sydney has distance bands 0-3km, 3-10km etc (with slightly differing fares depending on mode, and only off-peak on rail (due to the high fixedcost nature of rail))
Singapore takes it a step further with the fare charged literally changing every 2-300m

It wouldn't be a very popular government if they were to reduce benefits to seniors. I'm unaware of what the independent advice said about this, though I would harbour a guess that all such independent consultants are not baby boomers, nor about the retire themselves. Given that the baby boomers are on the brink of retiring en masse and with enough controversy about whether there's enough social security to support them all (let alone the counter arguments abounding such as disproportionate social security given to asylum seekers etc.), I don't think taking that kind of advice would go down rather well.

Like anything in Govt its cost benefit -- the NSW system currently enables a self-funded retiree living in a $5m house with $2m in the bank but having a Seniors Card to pay $2.50 to travel from their Sydney residence to their house in Bowral for example... I'm all for targeting those who need it most, but the NSW system is over generous (and the discounted fare of $2.50 hasn't been increased in 10years, unlike the fare for every other user)

 

[JohnK]

The ads don't say everyone will be saving, only 93%. I am led to believe that they have calculated this figure using their database of go card trips.

Fwiw, I'll be saving quite a lot even though I used to take advantage of lunchtime trips early in the week. The 9 then free was unsustainable, the game was always going to be up sooner or later (especially since Sydney got rid of their equivalent).

Even that's surprising. Most people I know at work easily do the 9 trips in the first 3-4 days.

Oh well.

 

[extracta]

Maybe if they introduced gold and platinum Frequent Bus Riders some of you guys wouldn't care how much you spent to achieve it.

 

[medhead]

Is a week Monday to Sunday in Brisbane?
In the case of JohnK, as I understand his expensive trips of the week would normally be on Sunday and Friday, i.e. airport trips, so instead of being free the cost is now 50%. Also people who got to free trips in 3 to 4 days are precisely the reason for the fare change.

In Adelaide tickets are a fixed cost, except for a 2 section ticket for short trips, and include a free transfer within 2 hours.

 

[moa999]

In Adelaide tickets are a fixed cost, except for a 2 section ticket for short trips, and include a free transfer within 2 hours.

Except you need a separate smart card for the 2-section trips.
And if your planning on making three journeys a day, the cheapest way is to buy a paper day-pass, as there are no fare caps...

Its a not-so-smart smartcard

 

[psi999]

Is a week Monday to Sunday in Brisbane?
In the case of JohnK, as I understand his expensive trips of the week would normally be on Sunday and Friday, i.e. airport trips, so instead of being free the cost is now 50%. Also people who got to free trips in 3 to 4 days are precisely the reason for the fare change.

In Adelaide tickets are a fixed cost, except for a 2 section ticket for short trips, and include a free transfer within 2 hours.

Airtrain was never included in the 9-trips then free scheme (but may have been included as a qualifying trip?).

Personally zone 3 to zone 2 for me. Household saving of $12.92 wk for myself and +1 (both CBD workers).

 

[anat0l]

Is a week Monday to Sunday in Brisbane?

Yes, Monday to Sunday.

What is not precisely clear is how much more will such people have to pay for their travel. This is not clear cut as fares per zone are dropping apart from there being wider zones. Some will likely have to pay more, but how much more.

Airtrain was never included in the 9-trips then free scheme (but may have been included as a qualifying trip?).

Personally zone 3 to zone 2 for me. Household saving of $12.92 wk for myself and +1 (both CBD workers).

There are other ways to get to the airport with public transport besides taking the Airtrain, albeit they may be coughbersome.

Also, if you have enough time, the free trips could allow you to go to OOL instead of BNE, if the airfare works out. Thanks to the free trip, the cost of getting from Brisbane to Coolangatta drops out, though as I said you still need to deal with the time required.

 

[medhead]

Except you need a separate smart card for the 2-section trips.
And if your planning on making three journeys a day, the cheapest way is to buy a paper day-pass, as there are no fare caps...

Its a not-so-smart smartcard

I use paper tickets in Adelaide, last time I did so only one ticket needed for the transfer. I like the idea of being able to take the circle bus route around the city for $5. I didn't release there was a day pass.

Airtrain was never included in the 9-trips then free scheme (but may have been included as a qualifying trip?).

Personally zone 3 to zone 2 for me. Household saving of $12.92 wk for myself and +1 (both CBD workers).

Many years ago when I was bussing it in brisbane, one change that really hit me was contracting the zone boundary, Zone 3/2. The boundary used to be over the hill in Salisbury. It moved so the regular bus to the city, bus stop 20m from house was still in Zone 2. But the express bus stop, 100m from house was in Zone 3.

Yes, Monday to Sunday.

What is not precisely clear is how much more will such people have to pay for their travel. This is not clear cut as fares per zone are dropping apart from there being wider zones. Some will likely have to pay more, but how much more.

As above, moving the zones can be a massive hit, good to undo such things.

 

[JohnK]

Is a week Monday to Sunday in Brisbane?

Yes.

Airtrain was never included in the 9-trips then free scheme (but may have been included as a qualifying trip?).

Personally zone 3 to zone 2 for me. Household saving of $12.92 wk for myself and +1 (both CBD workers).

Milton-Toombul-DFO on Friday peak and back again on Sunday afternoon/evening was free for me most weeks. Now likely to cost an extra $5-$6.

So now looks like I will be going from ~$24.12/week to ~$35-$40/week for train travel. This increase needs to come out of my non existent yearly salary increase. Another airfare increase anyone?

 

[anat0l]

Another airfare increase anyone?

Hopefully not likely in the near future given the current state of the economy.

 

[medhead]

Hopefully not likely in the near future given the current state of the economy.

Pretty likely, domestic airlines are reducing capacity to support higher airfares.

Yes.


Milton-Toombul-DFO on Friday peak and back again on Sunday afternoon/evening was free for me most weeks. Now likely to cost an extra $5-$6.

So now looks like I will be going from ~$24.12/week to ~$35-$40/week for train travel. This increase needs to come out of my non existent yearly salary increase. Another airfare increase anyone?

I'd suggest walking from Toowong to spring hill, or ride a bike. that'll save money.

 

[anat0l]

Pretty likely, domestic airlines are reducing capacity to support higher airfares.

Well, my mistake. I knew they were reducing capacity, but I thought they would be a bit weary of raising fares too much at a buy-shy point in time.

I'd suggest walking from Toowong to spring hill, or ride a bike. that'll save money.

That's quite a walk! As for a bike ride, that could work, though it'll be a tough job getting up to Spring Hill.