Reclining [Moving to an empty seat with another behind to do so]

[RooFlyer]

Why then, should someone else have 'rights' to move to another seat, unless they paid for it?

mrpooky.

Because they are still occupying one seat (presumably of the same class). The general ability to move between seats has never been challenged, as far as I'm aware. FAs may send back or refuse a move, as is their right, but in general, you can move (edit: after seat belt sign comes off, of course).

Sometimes there is even an announcement made to that effect if the plane is particularly empty.

You can even bring a guest up to business from economy, for some limited time, if the FA / CSM gives permission.

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Why then, should someone else have 'rights' to move to another seat, unless they paid for it?

mrpooky.

They don't. Everyone should be in their allocated seat unless they are offered by or ask permission from the cabin crew.

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

You can even bring a guest up to business from economy, for some limited time, if the FA / CSM gives permission.

This cheapens the product and shouldn't be allowed. When I travel in J/F, I always walk to the lower cabin to see the guest.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Why then, should someone else have 'rights' to move to another seat, unless they paid for it?

mrpooky.

but you have 'paid' for it.

you have purchased a seat in your chosen cabin. Just like in Fist class you can move around so you can in economy as well. The seats maps of airlines clearly show the different classes, but they don't divide economy into 'platinum' 'gold' 'shadow' etc etc.

it is quite possible a person at 6'5 is told at check-in that no bulkhead seats are available, but a subsequent no-show allows them to be seated more comfortably.

on my SYD-DFW flight (and v.v. just after the route started) the crew proactively moved passengers from the fairly full economy section to the rather empty premium economy section. that premium economy section was available for pre-seating to higher status QFFFers and many of the pax, who I suspect were looking forward to the empty seat beside them on boarding, suddenly found they had seat mates. If you had a window seat in Y+ for 16 hours and now found you had to climb over a seat mate for 16 hours that would be fairly uncomfortable... but did they have any rights to a spare seat? no.

if you spy a better seat in your cabin it's always best to ask a crew member as early as possible... preferably before they establish a rapport with the pax with shadow that way you have their permission and no time for pax with shadow to 'protest'

 

[boomy]

Firstly how does one know its a 'shadow' and not just an empty seat? Can anyone show me where QF T&Cs say that certain pax will be given an empty seat next to them and this is not to be occupied by anyone else?

In the absence of good answers to these, I would contend that no-one has 'rights' on a spare seat next to them, unless they paid for it. The FAs of course can regulate things if they so choose, and that's to be respected, but if you (I mean that generically) think you have access to two seats on a plane when you have only paid for one, please think again if you see me in an adjacent seat.

There is also nothing in the T&Cs about reclining all the way in someone's face or tapping nonstop on the IFE screen on the seat in front of you.
It's all about having good manners and some common sense. If someone was lucky enough to get a 'shadow', why take it away from him just for your personal extra comfort? Because you can?! I'm sorry but I think it's wrong.

 

[RooFlyer]

This cheapens the product and shouldn't be allowed. When I travel in J/F, I always walk to the lower cabin to see the guest.

I would agree with that. The only time I have done it is on a SYD-SIN flight where the J cabin was virtually empty (say, me and 2 others). I asked, and was given permission to bring my 2 travelling companions up to sit with me for a couple of hours. There was no-one else in the entire row.

I bet their seat neighbors in Y were appreciative of having more room

 

[legroom]

They don't. Everyone should be in their allocated seat unless they are offered by or ask permission from the cabin crew.

I agreed with RooFlyer in that voluntary seat change is often offered by the FAs after take-off in an empty plane.

Suppose you were allocated the middle seat in a row of 3.

After take-off, you could see an empty aisle seat (D) in a row of 4 (DEFG) with only G occupied.

Now, I would move to D to give my A/C neighbours some space and at the same time not inconveniencing the G pax.

You are perfectly entitled to remain in B as per your ticket should you choose to do so.

Sure, the pax behind D will now be inconvenienced, if I choose to recline, but that is balanced by the "gain" by the pax behind my now-vacated B seat.

It is not a matter of "rights" but rather a matter of etiquette.

As I do not like to "lose" the empty space next to my seat, I won't do that to another (so, boomy, I also agree with you).

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

I bet their seat neighbors in Y were appreciative of having more room

And the full paying J pax less so.

I did once ask the FA in F to ask Sir Geldof to put up the privacy divider and keep the noise down. Nice guy, was considerate and obliged surprisingly. They were very noisy and getting into the red wine, inhibiting sleep for those of us without the rock star lifestyle...

 

[RooFlyer]

There is also nothing in the T&Cs about reclining all the way in someone's face or tapping nonstop on the IFE screen on the seat in front of you.
It's all about having good manners and some common sense. If someone was lucky enough to get a 'shadow', why take it away from him just for your personal extra comfort? Because you can?! I'm sorry but I think it's wrong.

But this thread started on the premise that some-one moved to an adjacent empty seat to AVOID reclining into some-one behind them! It wasn't for the OP's extra comfort, but for the person behind. Thoughtfulness for the person behind Vs moving across a seat. I'm still on the side of thoughtfulness for the person behind trumps some assumed rights by some-one else for the spare seat.

And I repeat, how does the pax in 5A, or me in 5C know that 5 B is a 'shadow' and not just an empty seat? If the person in 5A doesn't like it, let them say so. If they did to me, I would respond that I'm trying to avoid inconveniencing the person behind me (but as I said before I hardly ever recline, so the situation wouldn't arise for me).

Besides - I'm a Plat - the shadow would be at least 50% mine; 100% mine if 5A isn't status. How does that affect the situation?

 

[BadgerBoi]

You can even bring a guest up to business from economy, for some limited time, if the FA / CSM gives permission.

Always a big hit with those who are ticketed in the J cabin

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But this thread started on the premise that some-one moved to an adjacent empty seat to AVOID reclining into some-one behind them! It wasn't for the OP's extra comfort, but for the person behind. Thoughtfulness for the person behind Vs moving across a seat. I'm still on the side of thoughtfulness for the person behind trumps some assumed rights by some-one else for the spare seat.

but that seems to overlook that the person behind can move their legs into the vacant middle and get all the legroom they need.

moving to sit next to someone would generally be considered inappropriate from a 'personal space' perspective.

 

[boomy]

But this thread started on the premise that some-one moved to an adjacent empty seat to AVOID reclining into some-one behind them! It wasn't for the OP's extra comfort, but for the person behind. Thoughtfulness for the person behind Vs moving across a seat. I'm still on the side of thoughtfulness for the person behind trumps some assumed rights by some-one else for the spare seat.

I think that both options are equally bad. Best option IMO is to stay in your allocated seat and, unless you have some medical problem or you're over 2 meters tall, you don't have to recline all the way.

 

[TonyHancock]

Besides - I'm a Plat - the shadow would be at least 50% mine; 100% mine if 5A isn't status.

What if 5A is a WP1 or CL? IF the person in 6A is a WP1 then the person who has taken 5B and reclined has taken 5A's shadow and then reclined into 6A's shadow. A terrible affair.

 

[Bad Seed]

Last time I flew Y from SYD to HNL (on Hawaiian) it was exactly that. I knew we were in trouble when we were waiting at the gate and the agent had to shriek over the loudspeaker "if you don't keep the noise down and listen to my announcement we are not going to go anywhere". It was like a rowdy school assembly.

Half an hour into the flight we looked down to see a pair of fetid tootsies, replete with chipped orange nail polish, creeping into the space between the armrests on our seats. A short, sharp rap with a hefty paperback from my seatmate put and end to that. The shriek from behind that ensued was satisfying, even if technically my seatmate had committed assault and I was a willing accessory.

The behaviour from the boarding area continued for the entire flight. For once I didn't blame the FAs for pretty much hiding for the flight, I would have done the same if I could.

I would never fly eco to HNL again.

I've flown a couple of times with Hawaiian in the last couple of years, always in Economy and found them good! Only issue was the pair of business types of decided to talk at high volume all through the night. At about 2am we asked the FA to ask them to keep it down as the lights were off and just about everyone was trying to sleep and they got this "who me?" look but at least they did drop their decibels. Like they didn't notice or probably didn't care that everyone else was asleep and as they weren't sitting next to eachother but one in front of the other there voices were louder than average

 

[RooFlyer]

but that seems to overlook that the person behind can move their legs into the vacant middle and get all the legroom they need.

moving to sit next to someone would generally be considered inappropriate from a 'personal space' perspective.

What? "... person behind can move their legs into the vacant middle and get all the legroom they need? " So you would recline in to the person behind, no problems? "Just shift your legs, sideways mate, no worries! (for me)". Have you ever tried to eat a meal, read a book or use a laptop when the seat in front of you is reclined?

And, oh, the "inappropriate" card. "Inappropriate" according to whom; according to which rules? You have paid for a seat. You have not paid, and have no rights for a personal private space beyond that. You and I hope that those around you conduct themselves in a responsible and respectful way. But if they don't unfortunately there are only a few avenues of recourse - the FAs are the major one. If some-one sitting next to you offends you, complain.

But I say again - on balance, if one MUST recline, then respecting the person immediately behind and NOT reclining into their paid space by moving into an adjacent seat trumps .. oh, the horror! the horror! ... simply sitting next to some-one in their seat.

What if 5A is a WP1 or CL? IF the person in 6A is a WP1 then the person who has taken 5B and reclined has taken 5A's shadow and then reclined into 6A's shadow. A terrible affair.

Indeed, a shameful affair; deplorable and I'd say zut allors, but I know you wouldn't appreciate that . But isn't part of the WP1 and CL's membership kit a sign that one hangs round one's neck and says " DYKWIA? Burger off from my space." Doesn't that solve everything?

 

[JohnK]

Sure, the pax behind D will now be inconvenienced, if I choose to recline, but that is balanced by the "gain" by the pax behind my now-vacated B seat.

It is not a matter of "rights" but rather a matter of etiquette.

I somehow don't think the person now sitting behind your reclined seat the rest of the flight is going think you are saint for your actions. And rightly so.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

What? "... person behind can move their legs into the vacant middle and get all the legroom they need? " So you would recline in to the person behind, no problems? "Just shift your legs, sideways mate, no worries! (for me)". Have you ever tried to eat a meal, read a book or use a laptop when the seat in front of you is reclined?

And, oh, the "inappropriate" card. "Inappropriate" according to whom; according to which rules? You have paid for a seat. You have not paid, and have no rights for a personal private space beyond that. You and I hope that those around you conduct themselves in a responsible and respectful way. But if they don't unfortunately there are only a few avenues of recourse - the FAs are the major one. If some-one sitting next to you offends you, complain.

But I say again - on balance, if one MUST recline, then respecting the person immediately behind and NOT reclining into their paid space by moving into an adjacent seat trumps .. oh, the horror! the horror! ... simply sitting next to some-one in their seat.



Indeed, a shameful affair; deplorable and I'd say zut allors, but I know you wouldn't appreciate that . But isn't part of the WP1 and CL's membership kit a sign that one hangs round one's neck and says " DYKWIA? Burger off from my space." Doesn't that solve everything?

eating meals should not be a problem for seat recline. seats should not be reclined during meal services.

as for the 'personal space' issue it is part of daily life. When you enter an elevator with only one other person in it you don't go and stand right beside them. You stand in the other corner. If you enter a train and there are plenty of empty seats, you don't go and sit right next to a stranger. That would be weird.

The same applies on a plane... if there is a triple seat unit and a person in A and C, it is not the social norm for the person in C to move to the B seat. It is encroaching on the personal space available.

As for the person sitting the row behind... sure, with a spare middle they do have extra leg space. And when the person in front is reclined, they can get back the exact same space they have lost by also reclining. So they have lost nothing. Unless they choose to be the martyr and remain upright. (domino effect - if everyone reclines then everyone is happy ) The paid space includes recline. Airlines and cabin crew support that position.

 

[RooFlyer]

eating meals should not be a problem for seat recline. seats should not be reclined during meal services.

as for the 'personal space' issue it is part of daily life. When you enter an elevator with only one other person in it you don't go and stand right beside them. You stand in the other corner. If you enter a train and there are plenty of empty seats, you don't go and sit right next to a stranger. That would be weird.

The same applies on a plane... if there is a triple seat unit and a person in A and C, it is not the social norm for the person in C to move to the B seat. It is encroaching on the personal space available.

As for the person sitting the row behind... sure, with a spare middle they do have extra leg space. And when the person in front is reclined, they can get back the exact same space they have lost by also reclining. So they have lost nothing. Unless they choose to be the martyr and remain upright. (domino effect - if everyone reclines then everyone is happy ) The paid space includes recline. Airlines and cabin crew support that position.

Ah, my 'they are taking the mickey' antenna is finally twitching. A bit late, I know, but I'm desensitized after a couple of reds.

You must be kidding, but in case you are not:

* We aren't talking about empty elevators, or a train with plenty of empty seats, we are talking about a plane where the choice is to recline into the person sitting behind you, or moving across one seat and reclining into a vacant area. Geddit?

* A person in 5A has NO, repeat, NO 'personal space' WRT seat 5B. Its an empty seat. E-m-p-t-y. No one there. Vacant. This parrot is no more! Again, to tiresomely repeat - the person behind you has much more claim on the space you are reclining into than the guy in 5A sitting next to you in 5B and sharing at most half an armrest. Doesn't matter if he's P1, CL or Alan Joyce himself. Yes, you can recline if you want. But as some-one else said, its a matter of etiquette - if you can sit such that you don't have to occupy that person behind's space, surely go for it.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Ah, my 'they are taking the mickey' antenna is finally twitching. A bit late, I know, but I'm desensitized after a couple of reds.

You must be kidding, but in case you are not:

* We aren't talking about empty elevators, or a train with plenty of empty seats, we are talking about a plane where the choice is to recline into the person sitting behind you, or moving across one seat and reclining into a vacant area. Geddit?

* A person in 5A has NO, repeat, NO 'personal space' WRT seat 5B. Its an empty seat. E-m-p-t-y. No one there. Vacant. This parrot is no more! Again, to tiresomely repeat - the person behind you has much more claim on the space you are reclining into than the guy in 5A sitting next to you in 5B and sharing at most half an armrest. Doesn't matter if he's P1, CL or Alan Joyce himself. Yes, you can recline if you want. But as some-one else said, its a matter of etiquette - if you can sit such that you don't have to occupy that person behind's space, surely go for it.

no taking the mickey. the same personal space concept that applies in an elevator applies on a plane.

if there are three people occupying ABC (full flight for example) then you all keep your space accordingly and make do. But if you go to AC only, then it breaches personal space by having a stranger move to the B seat.

it's exactly the same concept of someone standing too close to you when they talk, or an elevator, or a train, or any other such situation where people have control over how they interact with others.

most people have that sense of personal space. it is innate. a very small percentage of people don't have that sense of personal space, but they generally are considered to have some 'issues'.

for more reading see this: Personal space - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

from that article, if person in C moved to B, they would be entering the 'intimate' space of the person in A. That is a little creepy.

 

[BadgerBoi]

I've flown a couple of times with Hawaiian in the last couple of years, always in Economy and found them good!

My problem wasn't the airline, which was fine in a low-cost kind of way, it was with the bogan passengers who probably hadn't been out of their suburb before, never mind on a plane.