[Rant] It would be illegal to carry a dog in an economy seat.

[AustSerbKor]

I will make a positive post after this but IMO airlines have gone too far in cutting the space in economy. I know it isn't an entirely fair comparison as dogs in a cage cannot get up and move around, however there must be 10cm of space all around a dog, yet I get -2cm of legroom in economy and the poor person infront of me gets my knees in their back (sorry).

I fly because I have to, so if more space increases fares, I would have to bite the bullet.

My further annoyance is the lack of space turns passengers frustration on each other when it should be directed at the airline. On a recent night flight (Business was full) a cur woke me up to ask me to recline my seat less. I paid for the full recline of the seat and if there isn't enough room behind me like I don't have enough room infront of me, complain to Singapore Airlines don't wake me.

I believe Singapore Airlines premium economy is a minimum economy standard, sadly it often isn't available to or from Brisbane and never to Seoul.
I have been saying for years if I can't afford to fly Business, I can't afford to fly.

Perhaps I have hit the old and grumpy stage of my life where I need to talk less and click on Business more.

 

[MJHoops]

I enjoyed reading your post

And I’ll go straight to the bit I’m interested in - I take it you prefer Singapore premium economy to economy. I’m thinking I’ll use some velocity points to get that instead of economy with my wife and 2 kids

Is the main benefit just the extra space?

Any thoughts on the comparison?

 

[daft009]

I enjoyed reading your post

And I’ll go straight to the bit I’m interested in - I take it you prefer Singapore premium economy to economy. I’m thinking I’ll use some velocity points to get that instead of economy with my wife and 2 kids

Is the main benefit just the extra space?

Any thoughts on the comparison?

More space, better recline, better cushioning in seat. Some book the cook options.
Think I remember dedicated toilets too but can't be sure

 

[Quickstatus]

however there must be 10cm of space all around a dog, yet I get -2cm of legroom in economy

Understand the comparison but the human can get out of the seat whereas the dog cannot out of the cage inflight

lack of space turns passengers frustration on each other when it should be directed at the airline

yes

I paid for the full recline of the seat

But the person behind also paid for all the legroom. Both are not mutually exclusive. Cabins are a shared space.

I have a height disadvantage also so i can understand the legroom issue.
Have you considered an "extra seat" ie a second adjacent economy seat.
It is the price of an economy but less the taxes/fees but you also get the luggage allowance with it. Increases available legroom a bit if "manspreading"

 

[JohnK]

Agreed there's never enough legroom in economy especially on long flights. Surprised we don't hear of more issues with DVT.

And when it comes to width I think airlines have just about squeezed as much as they could. Realistically if each wide body had 1 less seat across it would be very comfortable but airfares would need to increase 10%-15% which would not be too desirable for most.

 

[eastwest101]

Speaking of width, I have read elsewhere about Airbus reconfiguring the internal walls to allow the newer A350s to have the option to go 10 abreast in the Y cabin.

Very sad if it's true.

 

[OZDUCK]

Speaking of width, I have read elsewhere about Airbus reconfiguring the internal walls to allow the newer A350s to have the option to go 10 abreast in the Y cabin.

Very sad if it's true.

Very definitely true. There are a number of reports about these change similar to the one below. Apparently it will squeeze in 30 more seats - though of course Airbus are not using the word squeeze.

Airbus A350-1000 Expected To Offer 10-Across Economy Seating

Airbus will be introducing a model of the A350, the A350-1000, that contains 10 seats across in economy class vs. the current 9 seats across.

upgradedpoints.com

 

[JohnK]

Speaking of width, I have read elsewhere about Airbus reconfiguring the internal walls to allow the newer A350s to have the option to go 10 abreast in the Y cabin.

Very sad if it's true.

From memory 9 across is already a squeeze.

Have another opportunity to check in September but I agree very sad.

 

[AustSerbKor]

I enjoyed reading your post

And I’ll go straight to the bit I’m interested in - I take it you prefer Singapore premium economy to economy. I’m thinking I’ll use some velocity points to get that instead of economy with my wife and 2 kids

Is the main benefit just the extra space?

Any thoughts on the comparison?

My premium was on an A350 from Brisbane to Singapore travelling alone.
My first bathroom visit convinced me I had spent the $440 on UpgradeMe wisely. Honestly walking into the economy cabin and seeing all of the people squeezed together with 2 much narrower aisles was striking. It was difficult seeing the people suffering in the economy cabin and not just because I knew my next flight to Seoul would also be in economy.
Yes, more space was the biggest benefit for me as was a seat with a proper recline that did not affect the person behind me. The more intimate cabin was also fantastic.
If you can use points definitely do it. I was willing to pay cash to upgrade the 3 of us for our Singapore to Brisbane flight but sadly that A350 didn’t have premium and business (and economy) was full. If we fly Singapore again it would be in premium.

yes


But the person behind also paid for all the legroom. Both are not mutually exclusive. Cabins are a shared space.

I have a height disadvantage also so i can understand the legroom issue.
Have you considered an "extra seat" ie a second adjacent economy seat.
It is the price of an economy but less the taxes/fees but you also get the luggage allowance with it. Increases available legroom a bit if "manspreading"

We disagree about the person behind me being entitled to more comfort than I am. Airlines advertise reclining seats and even though the ACCC usually recognises their level of competence doesn't extend to taking on airlines, reclining seats should be able to recline (not during meal service). I must dig out the email from Cathay years ago on using my CPAP onboard (pre-Covid) as Cathay basically said in the email economy customers cannot expect to sleep on board, so maybe I am wrong.

Regarding buying a 2nd seat, it's an idea, but I don't see the benefit as the lack of legroom for me (maybe partially offset through manspreading) and the passenger behind me when I try to recline won't be fixed. I feel it's better to bite the bullet and fly premium or business. Hopefully, next year things return to normal and I can burn points to upgrade or fly better.

 

[Quickstatus]

disagree about the person behind me being entitled to more comfort than I am

Both are entitled to the seat they bought, but there is no entitlement to comfort because that was not purchased. No airline also defines the space entitlement around that seat either. Any entitlement to recline is tempered by the entitlement of the passenger behind to their leg room. Ultimately it comes down to sensible negotiation and cooperation within a tight shared space

not during meal service

When seat belt signs on

economy customers cannot expect to sleep

No airline sells any aircraft seat with an expectation of sleep. A multitude of factors affect sleep on an aircraft. The seat and inability to be supine is one, noise, light, time zones, cabin temperature, cabin humidity, turbulence, and personal factors.

 

[Vic]

We disagree about the person behind me being entitled to more comfort than I am. Airlines advertise reclining seats and even though the ACCC usually recognises their level of competence doesn't extend to taking on airlines, reclining seats should be able to recline (not during meal service). I must dig out the email from Cathay years ago on using my CPAP onboard (pre-Covid) as Cathay basically said in the email economy customers cannot expect to sleep on board, so maybe I am wrong.

Are you saying you're entitled to more comfort than the person behind?
It's a compromise between everyone in the cabin, equal comfort.
I'm really not sure how to reconcile your complaint about being woken up with your claim that customers cannot have the expectation to sleep. It seems to me you had the expectation to sleep, based on complaining about being woken up.

 

[RooFlyer]

though of course Airbus are not using the word squeeze.

'Enhancement', perhaps?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Are you saying you're entitled to more comfort than the person behind?
It's a compromise between everyone in the cabin, equal comfort.
…

Unless purchasing extra legroom, everyone has the same room in economy. The seats recline.

If the person behind chooses to not recline as well they have chosen to give up the extra space.

In the old days everyone reclined during the movies so we could see the screen!

I understand some people think it is polite to not recline, but that is their preference.

 

[Vic]

Unless purchasing extra legroom, everyone has the same room in economy. The seats recline.

If the person behind chooses to not recline as well they have chosen to give up the extra space.

In the old days everyone reclined during the movies so we could see the screen!

I understand some people think it is polite to not recline, but that is their preference.

I'm really not sure how a person reclining relates to discomfort in their own knees. The question of politeness is not part of this equation. The OP was asked to "recline my seat less", that is not the same as "not recline" at all.
So what is the discomfort level of reclining less? In my experience no difference
Versus the comfort level of not having a seat jammed onto your knees.

The OP said nothing about whether the person behind had reclined or not. A couple of red herrings there in your reply, I feel.

Again my interpretation is the person behind was not asking to be [entitled to] more comfort. Hence my question to the OP about whether they think they're entitled to more comfort.

 

[AustSerbKor]

I did say rant, so I guess I got off target and tried to cover too many things at once.

The main point of my post is there is insufficient space for passengers in economy seats. This is not just a fat guy saying this, my 161 cm considerably less than 50-kilo daughter agrees.

Regarding seat reclines, it was a rant, as awake or asleep I would not ask a passenger in front of me to recline less as they like me paid for a seat with an 8-degree recline.

The lack of space being the issue and not fully reclined seats was demonstrated by Cathay when they had those hardback seats a few years ago. Most customers (and me) hated them not just because of the lack of reclining but also because there still wasn't enough space.

So in summary, 32 inches of pitch is insufficient to carry a human over 5 years of age. It is a shame to reward terrible customer service with spending 3-5 times the price with the same company, so hopefully, the new airline Air Premia will succeed with its 35-inch economy seat pitch. I am also sure at 35 inches pitch, there wouldn't be an issue with a reclined seat in front of you.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

AAmerican Airlines tried it about 20 years ago… MRTC - More Room Throughout Coach. Standard seat pitch was 34 inches. Made for an enjoyable ride.

but it didn’t last.

it was replaced by a few select rows with more pitch, and other airlines followed suit.

AA matched fares… they had to. Ordinarily an extra 3 inches is going to command about a 10% fare premium. But passengers don’t always appreciate that at the time of booking.

 

[downgraded]

But the person behind also paid for all the legroom. Both are not mutually exclusive. Cabins are a shared space.

My experience has been that QF's position is that the pax has the right to fully recline their seat with the exception of being directed otherwise by crew (such as main meals). I (WP at the time) sat and listened to a not large person berate the person sitting next to me for some time about how he had never been reclined into EVER before in all the time he'd been travelling, and my neighbour (not travelling with me) was totally out of line and must put their seat up etc etc. The crew came and put him back in his box. I only mention the WP bit because then the staff came and apologised profusely and said such a venerable guest shouldn't have to be so disturbed and looked after me even better for the rest of the flight. They actually offered to move me to PE in a window seat but I turned them down as I couldn't face being boxed in when the person in front reclined (QF9 787).
The above said, I do tend to try to work with the person sitting behind to "share" the space if they're reasonable about it.