QF30 Emergency Landing in MNL after door "Popped"

[pauly7]

Not ODD at all; the Union can't use this to push their bandwagon (Exploding oxygen tank one theory of QF30):So the question re servicing was, indeed, asked of Qantas. (Guessing by a Journo)

No O/S servicing for this l'il 744 ... so no barrow to push = silence.

I know, classic isn't it!

They started with aircraft age, then CASA comes out laughing saying the 744 is only 1/2 way into its service life. Then the identified corrosion -> oh it was no where near the structural failure. Then service: Oh it was Australian (therefore the unions will now fight to the deathbed it was 100% perfect and if it turns out it was their fault they will find someway to pass the blame on I'm sure).

Sorry a bit cynical!

All in all the incident seems to have been handled extremely well for something that could have been a PR nightmare. I heard on Sky alot of the passengers are actually rebooked on QF flights already! (don't know if they were given some $ for the inconvenience of the unscheduled stopover)

 

[Ikara]

(don't know if they were given some $ for the inconvenience of the unscheduled stopover)

More to the point of this forum, did they get extra points and SC's??

JB

 

[oz_mark]

More to the point of this forum, did they get extra points and SC's??

JB

...and points on their hotel stays in Manila

 

[oz_mark]

Not ODD at all; the Union can't use this to push their bandwagon (Exploding oxygen tank one theory of QF30):So the question re servicing was, indeed, asked of Qantas. (Guessing by a Journo)

No O/S servicing for this l'il 744 ... so no barrow to push = silence.

The Daily Telegraph knows why...it was a rust bucket

Qantas jet was &squo;rust bucket&squo; | The Daily Telegraph

 

[maninblack]

All in all the incident seems to have been handled extremely well for something that could have been a PR nightmare. I heard on Sky alot of the passengers are actually rebooked on QF flights already! (don't know if they were given some $ for the inconvenience of the unscheduled stopover)

A PR nightmare. I would have said a potential nightmare, period. But you are right, QF does get the benefit of the doubt so often because they have a very smooth PR machine and the whole world wants to buy their story, it's a "good story".

Mrs Maninblack said to me, "oh, it's a good news story", "Qantas lands, periled Jumbo safely" etc. Many want to conclude that because it is Qantas, this must have been a freak incident, just one of those bizarre things that happen. I think the investigations will find that someone WAS at fault somewhere along the line, perhaps the LHR or HKG baggage handlers :!: That would suit Qantas, the engineers and Boeing

 

[oz_mark]

I think the investigations will find that someone WAS at fault somewhere along the line, perhaps the LHR or HKG baggage handlers :!: That would suit Qantas, the engineers and Boeing

Indeed, they probably will find somechain of events, but I have always had issues with these things about trying to blame someone for it. To me the purpose of the investigation is to understand what happened, and work out what can be done to prevent that sequence of events from occuring again, not to try to lay the blame on someone.

 

[SeaWolf]

Some passengers are saying that some of the oxygen masks were faulty and didn't deploy, or wouldn't stay attached to their faces because the elastic was worn. If it's true, it really would be a maintenance issue.

But passenger Beverley Doors from Phillip Island says she and her husband were left without access to an oxygen mask for about three minutes as the plane lost altitude. "When the oxygen (masks) came down, some didn't come down," she said.
"Ours didn't come down, and my husband just about went out to it, because he didn't have any oxygen for about three minutes, that's the way it happened."

Oxygen masks failed on Qantas flight: passengers - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[Evan]

Some passengers are saying that some of the oxygen masks were faulty and didn't deploy, or wouldn't stay attached to their faces because the elastic was worn. If it's true, it really would be a maintenance issue.

Oxygen masks failed on Qantas flight: passengers - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

That may be true but the oxygen masks also have set service life and must be replaces at x hours etc. And if QF followed the guidelines then not really there fault.
Of course i am thinking here of other planes where the units are replaces, maybe with a true plumbed oxygen system and not the chemical generators they do not replace the masks but i would think atleast a check would be in the list.

Now given i think just about every second row has extra masks why not grab one from behind or infront that is spare ?

Knowing the way they invstigate these things i am sure they will find a reason and it could be the fault of some incorrect or missing maintinance, it could be some freak oxygen bottle explosion.

btw did i remember correctly some news 12-24 months ago about the oxygen systems on some planes being filled with the wrong gas because the cart used to fill it was the incorrect cart ?

E

 

[Mal]

btw did i remember correctly some news 12-24 months ago about the oxygen systems on some planes being filled with the wrong gas because the cart used to fill it was the incorrect cart ?

Yep, that happened late last year: Probe after Qantas pumps wrong gas into jets - National - theage.com.au

But was fixed pretty quickly, and I seriously doubt it had any long lasting effect on the cylinders.

 

[Evan]

Yep, that happened late last year: Probe after Qantas pumps wrong gas into jets - National - theage.com.au

But was fixed pretty quickly, and I seriously doubt it had any long lasting effect on the cylinders.

I would as well, just wondering if i remembered correctly. And i am sure the nitrogen was dry ! so i can't see how it would hurt anything.

If it was an oxygen cylinder problem then would it not take 5 seconds to look inside and , oh wow they cylinder exploded ? and if it had they its 99% sure thats the reason....
I really would have thought that would have been easy to see if it was the reason, and if the bottle just leaked (ie not exploded or lots its top) then the presure control system would take care of it.

E

 

[maninblack]

Did anyone read Ben Sandilands article in The Sunday Age today. He brazenly declared that if the incident occurred in a remote area over the ocean, further from an alternate airport, "the aircraft would have crashed" or "run out of fuel" due to low airspeed.

I wonder with what expertise or information he is able to make such conclusions.

I got an email from a friend...who has a friend...who is an Aeronautical engineer....at Airbus! He says, based on the photos there was very little likelihood of hull failure. He also noted UA811 which suffered far more serious hull damage, and lost two engines, and lost significant use of control surfaces, still flew nearly 30 minutes to it's landing. Yes of course it is debatable whether UA811 would have been able to persevere for 2 or so hours. Interestingly apparently on that flight the coughpit crew had no emergency oxygen supply because the tanks are located just forward of the wing and were damaged/destroyed in the hull blowout.

 

[straitman]

Some passengers are saying that some of the oxygen masks were faulty and didn't deploy, or wouldn't stay attached to their faces because the elastic was worn. If it's true, it really would be a maintenance issue.

Oxygen masks failed on Qantas flight: passengers - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Just a couple of comments from someone who has done sessions in a decompression chamber.

It's interesting that how time lines blur and people get wonderful ideas about what they should be doing in an emergency situation.

At 29,000ft that people won't be conscious for 3 minutes without oxygen so I'm not sure how the couple managed without oxygen for that long OR their time line was blurred :!:

You'll see from the quote below that the time of useful consciousness is more like one minute.

High-Altitude Rapid Decompression​

Aeromedical Update By Dr. Tom Yasuhara, ALPA Associate Aeromedical Advisor.

When rapid decompressions occur with the persons involved breathing cabin air only, the following times of useful consciousness can be expected:
FL250: 1–2 minutes
FL300: 50–60 seconds
Some other published tables list longer times of useful consciousness per altitude, but those values involve a gradual ascent to the tabled altitude or a transition from oxygen breathing to removal of the mask without an RD. The dramatic hypoxic effects associated with an RD reflect the sudden outward flow of oxygen from the tissues when sudden exposure to a lower atmospheric pressure occurs. A period of increasingly impaired performance also occurs before useful consciousness is finally lost.

People should be seated and strapped in not up and about 'organising things' as one passenger was quoted. This was a life and death emergency situation and this guy should have been seated and holding his oxygen mask on his face if the strap has failed as he says.

Remember these oxygen masks are an emergency last resort and should be treated as such.

I'm also perplexed about how the guy knew he almost blacked out several times as this is not something you are aware of in a hyperbaric situation. The individual thinks they are doing just fine but alas they are not :!: :shock:

 

[Mal]

If it was an oxygen cylinder problem then would it not take 5 seconds to look inside and , oh wow they cylinder exploded ? and if it had they its 99% sure thats the reason....

Assuming it's still there! There are other theories which are also possible. So ATSB and their friends will keep nutting it out until they come up with their best fit.

 

[SeaWolf]

People should be seated and strapped in not up and about 'organising things' as one passenger was quoted. This was a life and death emergency situation and this guy should have been seated and holding his oxygen mask on his face if the strap has failed as he says.

I'd guess that when he said 'organising things' he was probably talking about trying to do up his seatbelt, put his tray table up, brace himself against the seat etc. rather than checking his calendar. :mrgreen:

 

[Evan]

maininblack mentioned that reporter who said it would run out fuel, thats the most crazy thing i heave heard ! there was so much fuel on that plane and so many airports in close proximity it would never be a concern. I would be more bettering it was over weight when landing or close to, not sure if they dunmped fuel.

Once at 10,000 feet you can fly along just fine.... 743 feried from PER-MEL depresurised after the damage to the hull. Thats a decent distance.

I would have been holding my oxygen mask in place and trying to keep as calm as was possible. really not going to care about my passport at all !
Some people have strange prioritys.

E

 

[rwatts]

I'm also perplexed about how the guy knew he almost blacked out several times as this is not something you are aware of in a hyperbaric situation. The individual thinks they are doing just fine but alas they are not :!: :shock:

Indeed, back in the '70s, I remember seeing Dr Jonathan Miller in a BBC television series (The Body in Question) demonstrate in one episode the effects of hypoxia - on himself.

He strapped on a mask attached to device which removed the CO2 from the air he exhaled then recirculated it back to the mask. It is of course the CO2 that gives the sensation of suffocation.

He continued talking to the camera for a couple of minutes only and then passed out mid-sentence. Even though he knew full well what the effect would be before the demonstration began, he appeared to have no warning (and later confirmed this) of passing out. The only sign to the viewer was some apparent difficulty on concentrating on his speech. Naturally there was a medical team present to immediately supply oxygen.

So, very likely the quoted passengers' perception of time and events at least in the early stages are going to be very unreliable.

Richard

 

[Mal]

More spotlight is being aimed at the Oxygen bottles:

Oxygen bottle missing - Travel - smh.com.au

An oxygen cylinder is missing from the Qantas 747 jumbo that was forced to make an emergency landing after a mid-air explosion punched a hole in its fuselage, an Australian investigator said in Manila today.

"It is too early to say whether this was the cause of the explosion," Neville Blyth from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) told a media briefing in Manila this afternoon.

Qantas has been ordered to inspect all Oxygen bottles on their 747 fleet, as well a bomb has been pretty much ruled out by investigators.

 

[straitman]

maininblack mentioned that reporter who said it would run out fuel, thats the most crazy thing i heave heard ! there was so much fuel on that plane and so many airports in close proximity it would never be a concern. I would be more bettering it was over weight when landing or close to, not sure if they dunmped fuel.

Once at 10,000 feet you can fly along just fine.... 743 feried from PER-MEL depresurised after the damage to the hull. Thats a decent distance.

I would have been holding my oxygen mask in place and trying to keep as calm as was possible. really not going to care about my passport at all !
Some people have strange prioritys.

E

It is reported that they dumped fuel. (If you believe anything in these reports)

 

[straitman]

I'd guess that when he said 'organising things' he was probably talking about trying to do up his seatbelt, put his tray table up, brace himself against the seat etc. rather than checking his calendar. :mrgreen:

You can do the above between breaths.

One interviewed Passenger stated that he got his passport out of his bag and put it in his pocket to aid in identification if they crashed and died. :shock:

 

[Evan]

It is reported that they dumped fuel. (If you believe anything in these reports)

Nah somehow i don't believe much people say who don't know anything... not that i claim to know anything but have done my hours in the seat and almost ended up in an engineering job so have some basic materials knowlege.

Looking at the damage it does no look all that hard to repair, the only reason i would say it would not be repaired would because the first A380's are due in August and this is one of the older RR powered 744's.

I wonder how long they will want to keep the plane for investigation before starting atleast doing a repair for a non-presurised ferry flight to where it will be repaired if not where it is.

E