Qantas rolls out Classic Plus Flight Rewards

[downgraded]

I would say the fact that they have their lowest fare buckets available across pretty much the entire calendar

...Shows that people were not buying revenue fares at QF's inflated prices either so now they're having a "sale" that still has overpriced revenue fares. As QF chose to join the race to the bottom in terms of customer experience, they are left only competing on price which is also a race to the bottom) which they haven't really reconciled themselves to yet (apart from remaining "boutique" and keeping themselves a small airline rather than going for growth so they don't actually have to fill as many seats to "fill" the plane).

 

[levelnine]

What a ridiculous comment.

I booked PER-YVR when on sale recently which was 358k points + $1341 return in J for CR+. That's 70k points more than CR and a few hundred in taxes. But I got to fly the exact dates and times I wanted, without the hassle of trying to find CR. So I’m happy.

Comparing that to toasters - honestly!

Glad you're happy. That's all that matters .

 

[Kangol]

There was a legitimate criticism of the program prior that premium cabin redemption capacity was all but non-existent.

This was coupled with the premises that were never acknowledged:
1. This game is owned and run by QFF using their rules
2. QFF are loyal to you if you attain a level of loyalty to them, that they determine.
3. If you are not loyal enough to them, you don't get the benefits.

What these people were crying about was: "I'm not loyal enough to QFF but I still want something for free." (almost free, free - more or less the same)

You wonder how such a business model works: unloyal customers having the same benefits as loyal customers...

CR+ fills that void of people who are loyal but not loyal enough.

 

[Gremlin]

Not sure that Qantas would measure success as having something available for sale lol. They only get paid when they make a sale, after all. Even worse, they're in the business of selling perishable goods. Once that front door closes, they're no longer getting a single cent for that seat.

So I would say the fact that they have their lowest fare buckets available across pretty much the entire calendar is not a great sign for this initiative, especially as it was hyped to the moon.

Indeed, if the purpose of C+ was as you state, they would have just kept Points+Pay and maybe upped the rate marginally. They were clearly aiming for something much bigger than that.

With respect, I don't agree. I work in Loyalty (not with QFF). Those I speak to at QFF seem pretty satisfied with the performance of CR+.

(Hint: The benefit to QF is gained not just from customers that redeem CR+. If you can work out how, you should be able to work out why amending P+P doesn't do the same)

 

[Gremlin]

This was coupled with the premises that were never acknowledged:
1. This game is owned and run by QFF using their rules
2. QFF are loyal to you if you attain a level of loyalty to them, that they determine.
3. If you are not loyal enough to them, you don't get the benefits.

What these people were crying about was: "I'm not loyal enough to QFF but I still want something for free." (almost free, free - more or less the same)

You wonder how such a business model works: unloyal customers having the same benefits as loyal customers...

CR+ fills that void of people who are loyal but not loyal enough.

Again, I disagree. At least in part.

There are a lot of points whales who don't have the flexibility to be able to game the rewards side of FF programs, as many on AFF tend to do. In my program a lot of work is done to ensure that these people stay engaged and are appropriately rewarded. CR+ appeals a lot to this segment, who are obviously high value customers.

 

[Kangol]

Again, I disagree. At least in part.

There are a lot of points whales who don't have the flexibility to be able to game the rewards side of FF programs, as many on AFF tend to do. In my program a lot of work is done to ensure that these people stay engaged and are appropriately rewarded. CR+ appeals a lot to this segment, who are obviously high value customers.

The difference is loyalty to QF is not the same as loyalty to QFF.

Points whales get their big balances from non-flying. Thus, they are not loyal enough to QF because they don't spend enough money to fly QF.
Keeping them engaged is not going to switch them over from being an infrequent QF flyer to a 3600 SC (minimum 2700 directly to QF) a year QF flyer.

 

[opusman]

Thus, they are not loyal enough to QF because they don't spend enough money to fly QF

That seems a very old fashioned attitude. Being loyal to QF these days comes in many forms besides actually putting in time in a seat. It's all about the $$$ at the end of the day.

 

[Kangol]

That seems a very old fashioned attitude. Being loyal to QF these days comes in many forms besides actually putting in time in a seat. It's all about the $$$ at the end of the day.

It's their attitude, not mine.
Don't forget that QF (the airline) is not the same as QFF (the loyalty program).

 

[levelnine]

With respect, I don't agree. I work in Loyalty (not with QFF). Those I speak to at QFF seem pretty satisfied with the performance of CR+.

(Hint: The benefit to QF is gained not just from customers that redeem CR+. If you can work out how, you should be able to work out why amending P+P doesn't do the same)

How often have you known someone who has worked their guts out on something for a year+ who is then willing to admit it's a flop?

You can always adjust your expectations downwards, especially when your livelihood depends on it.

 

[aikman]

Now that Classic Plus flight rewards have been available for a while now, it is interesting to note that there is ample availability for Plus awards on pretty much every international route on every day in every cabin.

That perhaps suggests that Qantas has set the redemption cost higher than the breaking point for most people. If these were a good deal, you'd expect more of them to have been snapped up.

Who knows how many people have bitten at these prices. Qantas will undoubtedly call it a success at their next earnings call, but the seats certainly aren't flying off the shelves.

How often have you known someone who has worked their guts out on something for a year+ who is then willing to admit it's a flop?

You can always adjust your expectations downwards, especially when your livelihood depends on it.

You say it's a flop because CR+ seats are plentiful.

So if CR+ seats were as hard to find as CR then you'd call it a success? That measure of success contradicts with the whole purpose of introducing CR+ which is to make reward seats more accessible.

 

[encryptededdy]

CR+ can be successful for QFF (for instance in terms of keeping points whales engaged) whilst simultaneously being a disappointment for other users such as ourselves in this forum.

The reality is the former is probably a lot more profitable for QFF.

 

[levelnine]

So if CR+ seats were as hard to find as CR then you'd call it a success? That measure of success contradicts with the whole purpose of introducing CR+ which is to make reward seats more accessible.

Yes.

You are confused. There is no contradiction.

If 20 million seats were sold at C+ levels, the number of points in the system would have significantly diminished to the point that demands on award availability would have significantly reduced. In other words, a success.

 

[Gremlin]

How often have you known someone who has worked their guts out on something for a year+ who is then willing to admit it's a flop?

You can always adjust your expectations downwards, especially when your livelihood depends on it.

Oh, I know plenty who will adjust their expectations. But very few of them last in my industry. A program change of this magnitude would have had countless scenarios simulated well in advance of implementation. You live and die by the numbers, and your ability to forward estimate, in Loyalty (it's come a long way in the last 15 years in this regard).

If they're happy with the numbers then they're running in line (or better) than projected. Simple as that.

 

[Gremlin]

CR+ can be successful for QFF (for instance in terms of keeping points whales engaged) whilst simultaneously being a disappointment for other users such as ourselves in this forum.

The reality is the former is probably a lot more profitable for QFF.

The CR+ proposition is very clearly NOT aimed at AFFers.

 

[Gremlin]

The difference is loyalty to QF is not the same as loyalty to QFF.

Points whales get their big balances from non-flying. Thus, they are not loyal enough to QF because they don't spend enough money to fly QF.
Keeping them engaged is not going to switch them over from being an infrequent QF flyer to a 3600 SC (minimum 2700 directly to QF) a year QF flyer.

The archetype points whale is not a card churner. It would be a medium-sized business founder. Has the ability to direct somewhat north of a million dollars spend to one airline or another. Accrues a firehose of points through business card spend. Not necessarily a road warrior themselves, but may have several of them working for them. When they fly, almost always at the pointy end of the plane.

Genuinely a lot more valuable to a QF than a road warrior or a DSC-hacking P1.

This proposition finds a home for their points when they want to take the family skiing in Japan or to a summer break to Europe.

 

[levelnine]

A program change of this magnitude would have had countless scenarios simulated well in advance of implementation. You live and die by the numbers, and your ability to forward estimate, in Loyalty (it's come a long way in the last 15 years in this regard).

Exactly. As I said, if the key metric is a flop (number of CR+ redemptions), no amount of secondary metrics and no amount of massaging expectations downward are going to save the initiative from the conclusion that it's a flop.

 

[encryptededdy]

So I would say the fact that they have their lowest fare buckets available across pretty much the entire calendar is not a great sign for this initiative, especially as it was hyped to the moon.

But it's the same fare buckets as cash fares, isn't it? So I don't think the fare bucket availability is a strong indicator of much.

We can have significant numbers of low price sale buckets available on many flights. I don't think CR+ is going to make a meaningful dent on those (cash fare purchases would still make up most bookings, I'd presume).

Exactly. As I said, if the key metric is a flop (number of CR+ redemptions), no amount of secondary metrics and no amount of massaging expectations downward are going to save the initiative from the conclusion that it's a flop.

I think we can agree that CR+ is a flop from the perspective of most of the users on this forum, except for a few routes (trans-tasman). However, I'm not sure why you're so insistent on claiming it's a flop for QFF because.... there's widespread availability?

 

[levelnine]

I think we can agree that CR+ is a flop from the perspective of most of the users on this forum, except for a few routes (trans-tasman). However, I'm not sure why you're so insistent on claiming it's a flop for QFF because.... there's widespread availability?

It's relatively easy to understand.

When an airline has a sale on cash fares, the cheapest sale fares often completely sell out, and very quickly on popular dates.

What Qantas has done with CR+ is to allow you to purchase airfares from the cheapest buckets using points. They have not sold out, pretty much on any route for any period despite being available for many weeks now.

Imagine, hypothetically, that Qantas set the CR+ redemption levels at 2c/pt for Y and 4c/pt for J. Do you think we'd have any CR+ fare buckets left? No — they would have gone in minutes.

The market has spoken. They are not buying at this price, at least in any significant quantities.

That suggests we're back at square one — everyone is still chasing the elusive classic awards and frustration with the system will continue to grow.

Another way to put it. Qantas allows you to buy any seat with P+P. Did that reduce the frustration with the Qantas points ecosystem? Not one bit.

C+ may be going down the same path.

 

[Gremlin]

Way to cherry pick my reply.

And, again, you are not the target market. Quite frankly, if CR+ operated the way you seem to think they should, they would be an unmitigated disaster for QFF.

We get it. We know you're unhappy with CR+. But it begs the question, what are you going to do about your displeasure? Are you going to leave QFF? Absolutely your choice. Are you going to continue to allow QFF to extract additional revenue from you, all the while complaining about how unfair it all is? Probably, would by my guess. Maybe you should apply for a job in QFF and explain how to do this better than they have? I'm sure you'll be taken as seriously as you deserve.

 

[encryptededdy]

It's relatively easy to understand.

When an airline has a sale on cash fares, the cheapest sale fares often completely sell out, and very quickly on popular dates.

What Qantas has done with CR+ is to allow you to purchase airfares from the cheapest buckets using points. They have not sold out, pretty much on any route for any period despite being available for many weeks now.

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure if I entirely agree.

If the sale fare at the currently available fare bucket was indeed so good, then it would've been sold out very quickly regardless of CR+, as people would just buy it with cash.

I guess if the expectation is that people will now use CR+ to buy tickets that they otherwise wouldn't have bought with cash (as is often the case for premium CR seats), then no, that's not happening. That's just the same as releasing more CR seats (which they evidently don't want to do).

I suspect from QFF's PoV, if they can make CR+ as attractive as cash (but not more attractive like CR, or less attractive like P+P) to purchase "any seat" for customers with large points earn and balances, then that's a success - it means these customers can start using their points on regular tickets without complaining about lack of availability (CR) or very poor value (P+)

Also if the seats are immediately getting sold out, then you could also argue that CR+ is a failure because many people will struggle to get access to these reward seats, which is the issue they're trying to fix in the first place.

Obviously for those of us without 7 digit points balances who are looking for a significant increase in value over cash fares in premium cabins, this doesn't achieve that.