Qantas Project Sunrise goes ahead, 12 new A350-1000s ordered

[Berlin]

The lack of dine on demand is a huge failing in QF's current J and F product. If they're going to be running 20 hour flights, they really need to up their game and allow passengers to eat when they choose.

I totally agree but fear that Qantas will not deliver. Even in J, dine on demand would be the killer argument to go on such a long flight. I just don't see it- meals haven't been Qantas' strength for quite some time now if you ask me.

 

[justinbrett]

I totally agree but fear that Qantas will not deliver. Even in J, dine on demand would be the killer argument to go on such a long flight. I just don't see it- meals haven't been Qantas' strength for quite some time now if you ask me.

I actually watched a review yesterday of SQ EWR-SIN from non stop Dan, and the lack of this was his main complaint.

It'll be like everything - once enough airlines do it, the rest will have to follow.

 

[sqrt()]

I actually watched a review yesterday of SQ EWR-SIN from non stop Dan, and the lack of this was his main complaint.

It'll be like everything - once enough airlines do it, the rest will have to follow.

Seemed like it wouldn't have been so bad if the ex US catering hadn't been so cruddy, even if there were still set meal times.

 

[RichardMEL]

I think we all know QF will NEVER come close to the levels of service, but specially the soft product, offered by the likes of QR and SQ. They just won't. That's not to be anti QF so much as to express that QF has always been in a second tier when it comes to premium travel in F and J (but above quite a few others, such as the US majors). It's just the way it is. Krug or Dom on QF? doubt it. The levels of options or even REAL book the cook type options as on SQ? Doubt it. The sheer variety of wine, spirits, tea, coffes etc... nope. A full caviar course with all the trappings in mini F? I'll win the lottery first. Now not everyone cares about such things (a bit like doors ) but some do, and these are all elements of a "true" F experience. QF just isn't at that level of almost over the top levels of service that you get in say the SQ suites, EY F, QR F, EK F etc (and even QR J with certain elements)

I really have enjoyed QF service, specially in F, but also in J, on many intl routes. It's closer to NZ cultural wise with a friendly, relaxed, "Australian" type vibe most of the time and it's a level that suits me compared to some carriers where there's a lot of bowing and scaping - no, I may be in F, but I am not the King of Siam. I just know what to expect from QF. Just as I expect even less from the likes of United on transpac (let alone domestic ).

And for me it's about tempering expectations - not so much accepting of poor standards or whatever but of what I'm happy with for what I pay ($$ or points) to achieve a goal or get to where I want but understanding that QF will never be SQ - but nor do I think it ever aims to be SQ, EK or QR.

 

[TheRealTMA]

I think we all know QF will NEVER come close to the levels of service, but specially the soft product, offered by the likes of QR and SQ. They just won't. That's not to be anti QF so much as to express that QF has always been in a second tier when it comes to premium travel in F and J (but above quite a few others, such as the US majors). It's just the way it is. Krug or Dom on QF? doubt it. The levels of options or even REAL book the cook type options as on SQ? Doubt it. The sheer variety of wine, spirits, tea, coffes etc... nope. A full caviar course with all the trappings in mini F? I'll win the lottery first. Now not everyone cares about such things (a bit like doors ) but some do, and these are all elements of a "true" F experience. QF just isn't at that level of almost over the top levels of service that you get in say the SQ suites, EY F, QR F, EK F etc (and even QR J with certain elements)

I really have enjoyed QF service, specially in F, but also in J, on many intl routes. It's closer to NZ cultural wise with a friendly, relaxed, "Australian" type vibe most of the time and it's a level that suits me compared to some carriers where there's a lot of bowing and scaping - no, I may be in F, but I am not the King of Siam. I just know what to expect from QF. Just as I expect even less from the likes of United on transpac (let alone domestic ).

And for me it's about tempering expectations - not so much accepting of poor standards or whatever but of what I'm happy with for what I pay ($$ or points) to achieve a goal or get to where I want but understanding that QF will never be SQ - but nor do I think it ever aims to be SQ, EK or QR.

Yes QF will never match but for $15000 they really should try a bit harder. But they really only cater for FF redemptions I suggest.

 

[TheRealTMA]

The lack of dine on demand is a huge failing in QF's current J and F product. If they're going to be running 20 hour flights, they really need to up their game and allow passengers to eat when they choose.

While interesting concept, I don’t think I could cope with 20 hrs straight on one flight, even in F. A stop with rest and a nice meal and a walk seems more sensible to me. We’ve done BNE DXB SEA in EKF and that was two 12-14 hr flights. It was ok but enough.

 

[dajop]

At the end of the day, QF will provide an F service that no-one else will offer (as I can't see BA,VS, AF, LH, UA, AA or DL doing such flights), that being a non-stop from SYD to JFK, LHR and possibly FRA or CDG. Therein lies the competive advantage over SQ, EK and QR (Yes there are people who do like the non-stops!)

But it is interesting that there is a market for F - SQ have 3 times now (initially when using A340, then when refitting the A340 to all J and then introducing A350ULH) chosen not to deploy F on their non-stop services between Singapore and New York. The economics with that level of F service must not have worked out for them.

 

[RooFlyer]

I think we all know QF will NEVER come close to the levels of service, but specially the soft product, offered by the likes of QR and SQ. They just won't. That's not to be anti QF so much as to express that QF has always been in a second tier when it comes to premium travel in F and J (but above quite a few others, such as the US majors). It's just the way it is. Krug or Dom on QF? doubt it. The levels of options or even REAL book the cook type options as on SQ? Doubt it. The sheer variety of wine, spirits, tea, coffes etc... nope. A full caviar course with all the trappings in mini F? I'll win the lottery first. Now not everyone cares about such things (a bit like doors ) but some do, and these are all elements of a "true" F experience. QF just isn't at that level of almost over the top levels of service that you get in say the SQ suites, EY F, QR F, EK F etc (and even QR J with certain elements)

I really have enjoyed QF service, specially in F, but also in J, on many intl routes. It's closer to NZ cultural wise with a friendly, relaxed, "Australian" type vibe most of the time and it's a level that suits me compared to some carriers where there's a lot of bowing and scaping - no, I may be in F, but I am not the King of Siam. I just know what to expect from QF. Just as I expect even less from the likes of United on transpac (let alone domestic ).

And for me it's about tempering expectations - not so much accepting of poor standards or whatever but of what I'm happy with for what I pay ($$ or points) to achieve a goal or get to where I want but understanding that QF will never be SQ - but nor do I think it ever aims to be SQ, EK or QR.

I like all of that, including the very last bit - although I think they try to say that their First is on a par with SQ etc.

As I've said before - 'First means First' - it should be first class, all the way, in every way.

Qantas' First Class lounges are superb. The First Host usually worked well. I loved check-in at MEL (TK Business check-in at IST is now like this). I liked the seats very much. Service was very good most of the time, although one time I was shocked at one of the First FAs - clearly (I hope) a trainee; he was a drone - but why in First? I described this in a Trip Report but can't find it now. I won't go on to meals etc again (to the relief of many ), but First should be First class in every respect. If not, call it Premium Business Class (which many have).

If Qantas puts a new 'signature' on its non-stop First then that would be amazing and I'd be cheering. But I know I could probably go QSuites and have much the same experience, for less.

 

[levelnine]

But I know I could probably go QSuites and have much the same experience, for less.

This is actually what excites me the most about Project Sunrise. It will encourage QR, SQ, EK, etc to increase the quality of their product offers and/or reduce their prices to encourage people away from QF's offering. At the moment, QF can't really offer East Coast travellers a lot more than QR, SQ, EK given all are one stop. Once QF can offer a true point of difference (non-stop), the others will be pushed to compete harder for premium passengers out of East Coast ports.

 

[RooFlyer]

This is actually what excites me the most about Project Sunrise. It will encourage QR, SQ, EK, etc to increase the quality of their product offers and/or reduce their prices to encourage people away from QF's offering. At the moment, QF can't really offer East Coast travellers a lot more than QR, SQ, EK given all are one stop. Once QF can offer a true point of difference (non-stop), the others will be pushed to compete harder for premium passengers out of East Coast ports.

Yes - yum. Lets hope for that. Main QR complaint is that they were swapping out the QSuites a bit too regularly for my liking. Their 1/2/1 A350 config was OK, but the 2/2/2 sucked big oceans.

 

[moa999]

Making the J suites proper "suites", finally!

No - making it a room.
A suite by definition is more than one room.

 

[Berlin]

No - making it a room.
A suite by definition is more than one room.

True that! that definition then really only leaves Etihad, doesn't it?

 

[Daver6]

Yes - yum. Lets hope for that. Main QR complaint is that they were swapping out the QSuites a bit too regularly for my liking. Their 1/2/1 A350 config was OK, but the 2/2/2 sucked big oceans.

I couldn't agree more with this. Last overseas holiday in 2019 was booked with 3 sectors in Q-suites. Only landed up in Q-suites for one sector. Thankfully the amazing food, drinks and service and consistent across all types though

 

[moa999]

True that! that definition then really only leaves Etihad, doesn't it?

Or I guess the QR Q-suites when booked as a group.

 

[RooFlyer]

Or I guess the QR Q-suites when booked as a group.

Or SQ when they invite you to occupy more than one 'room' - one for sleeping, the other for sitting.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Or SQ when they invite you to occupy more than one 'room' - one for sleeping, the other for sitting.

Just like home in Tasmania I suppose!

 

[eminere]

"Raises the bar"? "Well-regarded?" "Business Suite"? ET drinking the Qantas Kool-Aid again.

I don't think they've ever stopped.

 

[RichardMEL]

Yes QF will never match but for $15000 they really should try a bit harder. But they really only cater for FF redemptions I suggest.

Which begs the question. Joyce and the bean counters clearly see a reason to offer an F product on these aircraft. I doubt it's just that old school, legacy flag carrier reason of "Our best product goes to London and NY" that had been a thing for many carriers in the past but I truly believe has most definitely seen its heyday. So that means they project there will be actual paid demand for these seats. Celebs? high profile bankers and top level CEOS? They must see that "must get there ASAP comfort" as having a market. Not a huge one (6 seats) but still a market that, for example, SQ has not seen with its SIN-EWR flights (though to be fair, probably a different sort of demographic there).

And yeah, they will charge absurd list prices for F. We all know that these big spenders (the CEOs etc) will have fair corporate discounts, and the Kylie's of this world can afford it (if not comped) and the more regular joes will hope for either award or upgrade space from J(which will again command a premiumn in and of itself).

There WILL be a market for sure for these flights.

I watched Nonstop Dan's review of the EWR-SIN nonstop and his issues with food and such, he made perhaps the most important point about these ULH flights - the time lag and body clock displacement is a real thing. It does not personally attract me as a flyer. I'd prefer a stop (or stopover) in SIN for example, but I don't have time pressures etc and I would have reasons - such as SIN F lounge, or just stopping overnight or even for a few days. Everyone is different of course.

Back to the certain to be over the top F "list price" that this service will command.. I remind all of the laws of supply and demand.. QF isn't SQ, QR etc but that doesn't matter so much is customers pay enough in $$$ or even over the top mileage (I mean let's face it, that will be a pretty impressive reward ticket price no doubt - specially with likely devaluations between now and then too)... but point being QF will offer up what will get them the yield they expect. If not, they'll drop the price. It's all about the market, and given they will not have competition in this space (as noted above) most likely for a long time then you can probably expect some fair markup pricing over one stops - because they can... until the yield drops and they adjust again. Time will tell.

So it will be interesting to see just how this all plays out, and in turns how the one stop competition respond. eg I can't see SQ worrying too much for SYD-LHR and would not drop Suites or J pricing - they have so much demand from all the other connecting points on their network I think it wouldn't be an issue, Same with QR, EK etc and few other airlines will have an F cabin at that point.

Still, we will live in (more) interesting times. that's for sure.

 

[levelnine]

I can't see SQ worrying too much for SYD-LHR and would not drop Suites or J pricing - they have so much demand from all the other connecting points on their network I think it wouldn't be an issue, Same with QR, EK etc and few other airlines will have an F cabin at that point.

My view is that it will prompt these carriers to worry a bit because their Australia to hub flights are often the ones most in demand. We all know how you can save huge amounts of cash and find huge amounts more reward availability by starting your trips to LHR/JFK from our nearby neighbours (Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, etc).

I often see it when travelling to LHR in particular — the flight into/out of Australia is packed while the flight into/out of London is half full. While lots of people from non-Australian destinations feed into their London flights, it seems to be me that more Australians (and others travelling to Australia) from non-London destinations feed into their Australian flights.

That makes me think they will have to fight hard to retain market share, especially at the premium end, in a market that has historically been able to bear very high prices.

 

[Kiwi_Flyer]

So, I wonder if there'll be any crazy Brits or Americans who are going to fly LHR-JFK the long way round

I once flew EWR to SFO via SIN, BKK, SIN again, AKL & LAX. Airside transfers the whole way.

Also have done AKL-DXB-LAX for 2 ulh flights in a row.