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Qantas issuing "changes" to a flight that is cancelled

Jester38

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I have a number of seats booked on Qantas for late December/early Jan travel with a MEL/LAX/DFW/CUN return. It clearly is not going to happen but this morning I get advice of a change to one leg of the flight (AA code share DFW/LAX) which made no sense. Why are they not simply cancelling these flights and sorting out the credits/refunds rather than persist with the myth that an international flight is going to take off on Christmas Day? Understood from another post on here that they had cancelled all international flights out to March next year. Am I missing something here?
 

Pushka

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I have a number of seats booked on Qantas for late December/early Jan travel with a MEL/LAX/DFW/CUN return. It clearly is not going to happen but this morning I get advice of a change to one leg of the flight (AA code share DFW/LAX) which made no sense. Why are they not simply cancelling these flights and sorting out the credits/refunds rather than persist with the myth that an international flight is going to take off on Christmas Day? Understood from another post on here that they had cancelled all international flights out to March next year. Am I missing something here?
Nah. Their system just can't deal with it. I kept on receiving checkin reminders for overseas flights I'd booked, and cancelled, for July.
 

bodri

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I had flights booked to Istanbul via Dubai for September. In July, I noticed in my QFF bookings the Dubai Istanbul leg was cancelled and a new booking in place for the following day. I got a voicemail shortly after requesting I call back and when I did I was told "congratulations we are giving you a night's free accommodation in Dubai". I smartly said it was unacceptable and want a refund which was noted. I was promised the refund after 8 to 10 weeks. At the 10 week mark I called back and advised refunds are taking longer but since I was promised 8 to 10 weeks it would be processed today.
 

Jester38

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Nah. Their system just can't deal with it. I kept on receiving checkin reminders for overseas flights I'd booked, and cancelled, for July.
I kinda got to that conclusion. Hard to believe though - surely a cancelled flight flows through to a cancelled ticket! :)
 

RooFlyer

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Why are they not simply cancelling these flights and sorting out the credits/refunds rather than persist with the myth that an international flight is going to take off on Christmas Day? Understood from another post on here that they had cancelled all international flights out to March next year. Am I missing something here?

The only thing you are missing is Qantas' doggedly holding onto their customer's money for as long as they can get away with it. As long as the flight (or an alternative) isn't cancelled, they can keep your money. Although, even when/if they do cancel, it will still take many months for you to get your money back.

Check out current policies to see if you can cancel without penalty. Else you've got a long wait ...
 

DC3

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I have a number of seats booked on Qantas for late December/early Jan travel with a MEL/LAX/DFW/CUN return. It clearly is not going to happen but this morning I get advice of a change to one leg of the flight (AA code share DFW/LAX) which made no sense ...
Don’t worry about the AA alerts for flights that have been cancelled, or for flights that will be cancelled once QF pulls them. Just disregard them. I’m in the same boat.

Edit: Just make sure that the flights show as cancelled in your QF account, at some point
 
Last edited:

itchy feet

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As the DFW/LAX is an AA codeshare and planes are still flying around the US, could you be penalised for being a "No Show" on this sector?
 

RAM

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I have a number of seats booked on Qantas for late December/early Jan travel with a MEL/LAX/DFW/CUN return. It clearly is not going to happen but this morning I get advice of a change to one leg of the flight (AA code share DFW/LAX) which made no sense. Why are they not simply cancelling these flights and sorting out the credits/refunds rather than persist with the myth that an international flight is going to take off on Christmas Day? Understood from another post on here that they had cancelled all international flights out to March next year. Am I missing something here?
Q does not have the money to pay all its outstanding tickets sold for flights that have already been or will be cancelled. There is a very real risk that it will go into administration as if Q had not managed to raise the $1.36bn on June 26th, 2020 by an equity raising from institutions - it would have had negative Net Tangible Assets as of 30/6/20 (ceteris paribus)

However, Q has announced that they are cancelling flights though until early next year - so you should be due a full refund in cash.

There is another thread with copious detail on what to say etc to get the refunds processed.

Two important (& useful) bits of information.

1) Q has 'officially' cancelled all (except NZ flights I believe) international flights through until March 28th, 2021. So everyone is now entitled to a full cash refund no matter what airfare you purchased, including a non-refundable one.

2) That is what the ACCC have said (from their web site):


Some on AFF have been discussing that this 'full cash refund' is restricted to only certain tickets under Q's T&Cs. The ACCC disagrees and states that ALL tickets are elligible for full cash refund.

Qantas’ terms and conditions state that customers with fares booked on any of its domestic and international flights are entitled to have their fare refunded if Qantas makes a significant change to their flight, and Qantas cannot offer another booking which is acceptable to the customer.

The ACCC was concerned that Qantas’ communications to customers between 17 March 2020 and 31 May 2020 did not adequately inform them of their right to receive a refund.

In some cases, the ACCC considers Qantas’ emails may have encouraged these customers to cancel bookings themselves in order to receive a credit when many would have been eligible for a refund.

“We want to ensure that customers are aware that when Qantas suspends or cancels flights due to travel restrictions and fails to provide them with an acceptable alternative flight, they are entitled to a refund,” ACCC Chair Rod Sims said
.
....

“From our perspective, from the outset, Qantas did not communicate clearly with customers about their rights and, in a large number of cases, simply omitted they were entitled to a refund,” Mr Sims said.

Good luck!
 

JohnPhelan

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I kinda got to that conclusion. Hard to believe though - surely a cancelled flight flows through to a cancelled ticket! :)

No, not at all. Nor should it. One cancelled/changed flight will not auto-cancel the whole ticket - that would be a disaster. AA changed one flight, so the system auto-books you on a new flight and the system therefore sends you a change email.

The whole ticket won't be cancelled until QF cancels the MEL-LAX flight, which should occur by about the end of October/early November.

I'm in the same boat as you - flights in December which will be cancelled, but QF is doing this sequentially and have only just started cancelling existing December bookings (though they have not been selling new tickets for December flights for the last few months).
Post automatically merged:

As the DFW/LAX is an AA codeshare and planes are still flying around the US, could you be penalised for being a "No Show" on this sector?

No, because the whole ticket will cancel when QF cancels the the MEL-LAX leg.
 

Jester38

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It keeps getting better and obviously I am not alone here. Get the cancellation notice for the flight and an automatic flight credit issued. Predictable but good. However, the credit is only valid until March next year. Last time I looked, all flights were being cancelled through to this time and likely beyond. So, on basis that credit could expire, tried to look for the refund (which we all know has to be offered if they cancel). I click on the link, get taken through to Customer Contact and to no-ones surprise, no refund link - in fact, nothing at all to guide you other than so helpful hints like "check out our FAQs" and "bear with us, we are experiencing delays at this time".
I'll make my way through this - just takes perserverance but is this really how they value a WP member? Had they made the credit expiry a sensible date that reflected these unusual conditions, I would have probably been fine to have left the money in there. I have another early Dec booking which has also been cancelled and this expiry date is a month earlier (Feb 21) and with nearly $14k in refunds across both bookings, thought this a particularly dumb approach by the airline. Understand the motive of conserving cash but when it does nothing but antagonise their more regular flyers, I just don't get it.
 

AIRwin

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I was on hold for 1.5 hours when I called to request for a refund, but your waiting time may be less as a Platinum...
 

Jester38

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I was on hold for 1.5 hours when I called to request for a refund, but your waiting time may be less as a Platinum...
I feel your pain. Why oh why cannot they simplify this process - enable it online - and have you go through that sort of rubbish to get your legal entitlement!!! There were many other problems I had with them but when trying to do the same thing with LATAM on other flight bookings, at least there was a link, albeit well buried, that you could use on the website.
 

ethernet

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Friend stranded in Vietnam had his 6th covid escape JQ flight to Sydney cancelled (was 6 Dec) . So much for trying to return home. He needs 6 vouchers like a hole in the head.
I am confused, is JQ in the same boat as QF money wise?
 

RAM

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Friend stranded in Vietnam had his 6th covid escape JQ flight to Sydney cancelled (was 6 Dec) . So much for trying to return home. He needs 6 vouchers like a hole in the head.
I am confused, is JQ in the same boat as QF money wise?
Yes JQ is a subset of Q. Have a look at my postings (click of Circle with R at left of this post) on the ACCC's announcement from back in June about full cash refunds. Then adivse your friend to call & quote the ACCC to help with getting full cash refunds (including all fees & charges).

I feel your pain. Why oh why cannot they simplify this process - enable it online - and have you go through that sort of rubbish to get your legal entitlement!!! There were many other problems I had with them but when trying to do the same thing with LATAM on other flight bookings, at least there was a link, albeit well buried, that you could use on the website.
Q does not have enough cash to pay out all the cancelled flights, the redundancies, QFF redemptions, property leases, mandatory superannuation & defined benefit contributions (>$200m?), $400m maturing bond in June 2021 as well as ongoing operating cash burn of > $40m/week. Notably the Q Annual Report makes zero mention of the cash burn, not what it was by end of June nor what they are aiming for in 2020/21. Now why could that be?

As of June 30th, 2020 Q's Net Tangible Assets were down to 5 cents per share (approx $250m), they got in $77m from the retail issue in August & $500m (ostensiby to refinance the $400m June 2021 bond maturity). Meanwhile if Q had managed to cut cash burn to $40m/week (not counting paying out redundancies - reportedly still mostly outstanding & missed 30 Sept date, refunds etc) that would have seen $600m+ used. Issuing the bond did raise cash ($500m) but also increased liabilities so NTA unchanged.

Q's Net Tangible Assets, just based on reducing through operating cash burn, could be around negative $300m currently.

Two guesses why finding a link to quickly get a full cash refund, on the additional 5 months of flights added (in early October despite being removed from booking in early July) to the officially cancelled list in addition to those waiting for their refunds from prior to 30 June, is apparently as available as a Q international passenger flight departure leaving today.
 

MEL_Traveller

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We’d need to see the JQ conditions of carriage pre covid. The current terms and conditions state that for events beyond their control, if a flight is cancelled they will issue a flight credit.

The ACCC has previously advised that a flight credit is acceptable if allowed by the terms and conditions. (The Qantas T&C provided for a full refund, regardless of whether the events were within their control or not.)
 
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ethernet

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ACCC should also stipulate that all flight credits so issued, should be free of known impairment, such as future restructuring. Because that is just a intentional way of granting creditors preferential treatment.
 

RAM

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We’d need to see the JQ conditions of carriage pre covid. The current terms and conditions state that for events beyond their control, if a flight is cancelled they will issue a flight credit.

The ACCC has previously advised that a flight credit is acceptable if allowed by the terms and conditions. (The Qantas T&C provided for a full refund, regardless of whether the events were within their control or not.)
ACCC announcement covered all Qantas flights regardless of the subsidiary. If you have any further doubts then contact ACCC directly.

As I found out (as written about above) I got a full refund from JQ when they kept changing the flight departure times for a return trip to ones that did not suit us. Yes, they tried on that they did not have to until I pointed out the law. A company's terms & conditions DO NOT overide the Federal legislation no matter how much they wish it did!
 

MEL_Traveller

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ACCC announcement covered all Qantas flights regardless of the subsidiary. If you have any further doubts then contact ACCC directly.

As I found out (as written about above) I got a full refund from JQ when they kept changing the flight departure times for a return trip to ones that did not suit us. Yes, they tried on that they did not have to until I pointed out the law. A company's terms & conditions DO NOT overide the Federal legislation no matter how much they wish it did!

The ACCC website is very clear that jetstar is excluded, and not in the same boat as Qantas: COVID-19 (coronavirus) information for consumers

From that page:
  • If you are holding a credit for a Qantas flight which was cancelled or suspended by Qantas due to the COVID-19 pandemic, you are entitled to a refund free of charge if you would prefer that option. You are also entitled to a refund free of charge if Qantas makes a change to your flight that significantly impacts you and your travel plans, such as a date change on a domestic flight. If you would prefer a refund, contact Qantas on 13 13 13.
  • Qantas’ terms and conditions state that customers with fares booked on any of its domestic and international flights are entitled to have their fare refunded if Qantas makes a significant change to their flight and cannot offer another booking which is acceptable to the customer.
followed by (my underlining)​
  • The Qantas guidance above does not apply to Jetstar as its terms and conditions are different to Qantas’ terms and conditions. Jetstar customers are encouraged to visit the Jetstar website for further information about remedies. At present, the Jetstar FAQs page under the heading 'What happens if my flight is cancelled' states that cash refunds for domestic and international bookings are only available where your flight has been cancelled and you have not been provided an alternative flight, or if you have been provided an alternative flight departing more than 3 hours before or after your originally scheduled departure time.
To reinforce this point, the ACCC states that the conditions of carriage will determine a right to a refund:
  • Customers holding bookings with other airlines which have been affected by the COVID-19 pandemic should read the terms and conditions of the relevant airline carefully, as your right to a refund may depend upon whether you are entitled to a refund under those terms and conditions.
  • Depending on your circumstances, you may also have other rights under common law, contract or state legislation

You may have been entitled to a refund on other grounds... but not due to a covid cancellation.

A company's terms and conditions do not override the Federal legislation, but in this case, JQ's 'no refund' policy for covid was considered ok by the ACCC.
 

RAM

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The ACCC website is very clear that jetstar is excluded, and not in the same boat as Qantas: COVID-19 (coronavirus) information for consumers

From that page:
  • If you are holding a credit for a Qantas flight which was cancelled or suspended by Qantas due to the COVID-19 pandemic, you are entitled to a refund free of charge if you would prefer that option. You are also entitled to a refund free of charge if Qantas makes a change to your flight that significantly impacts you and your travel plans, such as a date change on a domestic flight. If you would prefer a refund, contact Qantas on 13 13 13.
  • Qantas’ terms and conditions state that customers with fares booked on any of its domestic and international flights are entitled to have their fare refunded if Qantas makes a significant change to their flight and cannot offer another booking which is acceptable to the customer.
followed by (my underlining)​
  • The Qantas guidance above does not apply to Jetstar as its terms and conditions are different to Qantas’ terms and conditions. Jetstar customers are encouraged to visit the Jetstar website for further information about remedies. At present, the Jetstar FAQs page under the heading 'What happens if my flight is cancelled' states that cash refunds for domestic and international bookings are only available where your flight has been cancelled and you have not been provided an alternative flight, or if you have been provided an alternative flight departing more than 3 hours before or after your originally scheduled departure time.
To reinforce this point, the ACCC states that the conditions of carriage will determine a right to a refund:
  • Customers holding bookings with other airlines which have been affected by the COVID-19 pandemic should read the terms and conditions of the relevant airline carefully, as your right to a refund may depend upon whether you are entitled to a refund under those terms and conditions.
  • Depending on your circumstances, you may also have other rights under common law, contract or state legislation

You may have been entitled to a refund on other grounds... but not due to a covid cancellation.

A company's terms and conditions do not override the Federal legislation, but in this case, JQ's 'no refund' policy for covid was considered ok by the ACCC.
I believe you are wrong.

From this ACCC page, under the 'Jetstar' tag

'What happens if my flight is cancelled' states that cash refunds for domestic and international bookings are only available where your flight has been cancelled and you have not been provided an alternative flight, or if you have been provided an alternative flight departing more than 3 hours before or after your originally scheduled departure time.

Quite clear.

If Jetstar cancels a flight (for ANY reason) and does not provide an alternative flight +/- 3 hours of your booked flight = cash refund.

As JetStar stopped flying to most destinations = full cash refund, no argument.

Any trouble contact ACCC after reading JQ CSA the direct quote from this ACCC page.

BTW - the legislation states where a seller fails to provide the good or service contracted according to the contracted details then a full refund is due, including any additional fees & charges.

No company's terms & conditions override the legislation no matter how much they may try and convince you.

JQ did this with me on return flights to Hobart, and caved when I quoted the legislation.
 

MEL_Traveller

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I believe you are wrong.

I'm quoting from the same page as you, where it states the blanket Qantas policy does not apply to Jetstar.

From this ACCC page, under the 'Jetstar' tag

'What happens if my flight is cancelled' states that cash refunds for domestic and international bookings are only available where your flight has been cancelled and you have not been provided an alternative flight, or if you have been provided an alternative flight departing more than 3 hours before or after your originally scheduled departure time.

Quite clear.

If Jetstar cancels a flight (for ANY reason) and does not provide an alternative flight +/- 3 hours of your booked flight = cash refund.

The ACCC page provides a link to the JQ FAQ page. There are two elements to JQ's policy... and it turns on cancellation 'within' or 'outside' their control.

If JQ is still flying a route and they cancel or fail to offer an alternative, then you are entitled to a full refund.

If JQ is not flying a route, and the reason for that is outside of their control, you may be limited to a voucher.

The ACCC has stated a voucher is ok if the terms and conditions so state. In your case, IIRC it was travel to Tasmania? Was JQ still flying? Or had they canceled the route entirely due to covid?

If the policy is effected the way you imply, the ACCC would apply to all airlines, irrespective of their terms and conditions. The ACCC states that is not the case (ie, the terms and conditions will prevail as long as they are not inconsistent with the ACL).
 

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