Qantas brand badly tarnished

[RichardMEL]

I think a related discussion of SkyTrax/QF is still on topic here. I'll try to keep it that way.

First, thanks for the correction re the QF market share. My goodness if it's fallen to under 20% - I clearly was working with an old figure in my head (or a figure in my old head perhaps ). I think that says a lot, but not directly related to QF's brand.

As for SkyTrax surveys... I HAD actually had one or two handed out in flight - but tis was back in the 90's and on UA I think. Perhaps it is online these days - that would make sense - but if so then that's definitely onto those "in the know" to persue that, which would suggest that whatever data they get would be skewed towards interested persons. I've not seen anything on any carrier that I can recall suggesting to go to a site and rate them (unlike various emails sent out by hotels and some airlines to vote in the Freddie awards, for example). And of course SkyTrax shouldn't be confused with the surveys sent my individual airlines, like QF, post their flights.

I still feel the actual rating criteria are opaque and vague and this is part of the "problem" that some in the industry have. It's not like you can point to unique data like OTP or even mishandled bags / x pax to make any kind of comparision. I am sure these are part of it, but there's clearly more going on.

Getting back to QF and it's brand though, something like this (skytrax #17) being publicised of course adds to the tarnishing of the brand.. or rather reinforces what many think or feel anyway - on top of the flight diversions, baggage issues, delays, etc that have been well reported on - fairly or otherwise. And it's no surprise that QF dropped. If they rose we'd ALL know how dodgy the system was!

 

[encryptededdy]

I am a bit curious about the sudden drop of so many places though. A more accurate portrayal (imo) would be a slow slide down to where QF is now over the past 2-3 years.

 

[RooFlyer]

Another data point, specifically about brand.

Roy Morgan Research quarterly 'most trusted brand' survey found:

The previously highly trusted QANTAS has nosedived, falling 31 places, moving from the 9th most trusted brand in the September quarter to the 40th most trusted brand in the December quarter. Just six months ago the national carrier, which has been plagued by perceptions of poor customer service, flight delays, cancellations, and rising prices, was the 6th most trusted brand in the country. The brand now records only marginally more trust than distrust, whereas in the past its trust far surpassed its distrust.

I think we can agree that Roy Morgan has a credible methodology, compared to SkyTrax!

 

[OATEK]

And restaurants have to consistently produce good or excellent food AND service to get Michelin stars. QF would fail under such a regime.

Yes, true, but restaurants don't have to get planes up and down safely every day with all that involves. They just have to check the fresh veggies have arrived.

Another data point, specifically about brand.

Roy Morgan Research quarterly 'most trusted brand' survey found:

I think we can agree that Roy Morgan has a credible methodology, compared to SkyTrax!

While there is a loss of trust in the brand, QF are filling their planes. So often over on the thread about upgrade probability those of us checking EF are finding the the probability is generally very low on QFi.

 

[MooTime]

So often over on the thread about upgrade probability those of us checking EF are finding the the probability is generally very low on QFi.

On that upgrade thread I read lot more receiving the upgrade requests than not.

I'd say higher portion of WP & SG holders here than the unwashed so I'd expect more here to strike the upgrade.

 

[RooFlyer]

Yes, true, but restaurants don't have to get planes up and down safely every day with all that involves. They just have to check the fresh veggies have arrived.

While there is a loss of trust in the brand, QF are filling their planes. So often over on the thread about upgrade probability those of us checking EF are finding the the probability is generally very low on QFi.

Oh, definitely high load factors in spite of everything. I’m just and

 

[Mr H]

I'd say higher portion of WP & SG holders here than the unwashed so I'd expect more here to strike the upgrade.

That is remarkably offensive to those of us who do not have status.

 

[MooTime]

That is remarkably offensive to those of us who do not have status.

Geewiz, the sensitivity these days.

Offended at drop of a feather.

 

[ozflier]

I've been reading some of the comments in response to media articles on this issue.

Some suggestions show sense - that doesn't mean they will occur but.....
The best ones ( to me) and my thoughts are

ACCC to force airlines to pay compensation in money for cancelled flights ,delays lost baggage etc - maybe similar to the European and the similar UK models and those being considered by the US FAA.

Feds to allow Qatar the additional extra services they are requesting - apart from providing more competition to Qantas, I can see no reason for them to be refused .

Allow non Australian airlines fly between domestic destinations in Australia . I think "cabotage" is the term for it ( not just air also sea and land ) - We have had it here before - Pilot's strike when for example NZ flew domestic passengers between east coast capitals and United carried domestic pax between BN/SYD and SYD/MEL. This occurs for many reasons overseas now eg Rio de Janiero to Santiago de Chile on KLM or Milan to Zurich by Ethiopian.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Allow non Australian airlines fly between domestic destinations in Australia . I think "cabotage" is the term for it ( not just air also sea and land ) - We have had it here before - ATC strike when for example NZ flew domestic passengers between east coast capitals and United carried domestic pax between BN/SYD and SYD/MEL. This occurs for many reasons overseas now eg Rio de Janiero to Santiago de Chile on KLM or Milan to Zurich by Ethiopian.

Fifth freedom is allowed subject to government regulations. Cabotage… well… obviously some times where it has been desirable like the pilots’ strike, but is generally frowned upon and not allowed.

Some countries allow airlines to carry their own pax on connecting domestic services… like the UA flights between sydney and melbourne, or qantas between lax and JFK. But you usually had to have arrived on UA or QF respectively to be able to take those services.

I think UA became unstuck when they were carrying other international connecting traffic and it was stopped.

 

[dajop]

- We have had it here before - ATC strike when for example NZ flew domestic passengers between east coast capitals l

NZ could do that today if they wanted to (although they’re not silly enough to attempt to), as Qantas can and does (through Jetstar) carry NZ domestic passengers.

 

[gaz0303]

Oh, definitely high load factors in spite of everything. I’m just and

And still commanding a large premium!

 

[MooTime]

I've been reading some of the comments in response to media articles on this issue.

Some suggestions show sense - that doesn't mean they will occur but.....
The best ones ( to me) and my thoughts are

ACCC to force airlines to pay compensation in money for cancelled flights ,delays lost baggage etc - maybe similar to the European and the similar UK models and those being considered by the US FAA.

Feds to allow Qatar the additional extra services they are requesting - apart from providing more competition to Qantas, I can see no reason for them to be refused .

Allow non Australian airlines fly between domestic destinations in Australia . I think "cabotage" is the term for it ( not just air also sea and land ) - We have had it here before - ATC strike when for example NZ flew domestic passengers between east coast capitals and United carried domestic pax between BN/SYD and SYD/MEL. This occurs for many reasons overseas now eg Rio de Janiero to Santiago de Chile on KLM or Milan to Zurich by Ethiopian.

I remember flying MEL SYD LAX all on United Airlines long time ago, thought it was cool back then and still do.

Would hurt local carriers though, do we really want that?
We do need healthy local Airlines.

 

[Mr H]

I remember flying MEL SYD LAX all on United Airlines long time ago, thought it was cool back then and still do.

Would hurt local carriers though, do we really want that?
We do need healthy local Airlines.

I would always like to support local businesses, but with PLCs it is difficult to ever really say that a company is Australian, American or whatever. Their owners may be anywhere and their staff may be anywhere.

 

[MooTime]

I would always like to support local businesses, but with PLCs it is difficult to ever really say that a company is Australian, American or whatever. Their owners may be anywhere and their staff may be anywhere.

We know the national carrier is ~40% foreign owned, but what does that mean, nothing really like your said. Maybe that local Airlines pay tax here is beneficial, but in a personal level it's all rather irrelevant. IMO.

 

[encryptededdy]

Allow non Australian airlines fly between domestic destinations in Australia . I think "cabotage" is the term for it ( not just air also sea and land ) - We have had it here before - ATC strike when for example NZ flew domestic passengers between east coast capitals and United carried domestic pax between BN/SYD and SYD/MEL. This occurs for many reasons overseas now eg Rio de Janiero to Santiago de Chile on KLM or Milan to Zurich by Ethiopian.

I don't think this is something that is allowed by any country to my knowledge. Those examples you give are not domestic flights, and as for United I don't believe you could book that as a domestic-only itinerary (so same restrictions as Qatar's current MEL-ADL).

The AU/NZ arrangement is special due to (to my knowledge) the Trans-Tasman Single Aviation Market. Qantas used to fly domestically in New Zealand due to this (and still do as Jetstar).

Most countries have quite strict rules on this. For instance, you can't fly Guam to the continental United States via. Korea/Japan on a Japanese or Korean carrier, and I believe they have been fined in the past for selling tickets that do this.

 

[ozflier]

I remember flying MEL SYD LAX all on United Airlines long time ago, thought it was cool back then and still do.

Would hurt local carriers though, do we really want that?
We do need healthy local Airlines.

I think one of the problems with domestic air travel is the fact that it is basically a duopoly - what we need is more competition !
Rex and Bonza might get there one day but the quicker option is to let overseas airlines continue to additional cities beyond the first one they arrive at .
Qatar have done it in the past eg flying ADL/MEL ie but passengers can only fly the domestic connection who originated from or eventually arrive in Qatar . This was the basis of QF's LAX-JFK.
Foreign airlines eg United Airlines were able, during the 1989 Pilots' strike, to arrive from SFO in Sydney and then that aircraft would continue on to Brisbane and carry Australian passengers who were solely travelling between Sydney and Brisbane . This principle is sometimes described as the "Eighth Airline Freedom " (Freedoms of the air - Wikipedia).
The Australian government would need to agree to this and the local carriers would be very resistant - but I think we need competition and this is the fastest way to force Qantas and VA to up their service and drop their fares.
I understand some posters may disagree.
Qantas itself does use some of these freedoms - it uses 5th freedom rights to allow a passenger who has not originated in Australia to fly on its metal Singapore to London ( as does British Airways). Qantas's AKL-JFK leg starting soon will also use 5th freedom rights to fly New Zealanders to the USA on QF metal.

 

[Mr H]

I don't think this is something that is allowed by any country to my knowledge.

Aer Lingus flies UK domestic routes to and from Belfast.

 

[encryptededdy]

Aer Lingus flies UK domestic routes to and from Belfast.

I don't believe they do so any due to brexit issues? But yes, you're right, I did completely forget to mention the European single aviation market as a big exception to the rule.

Foreign airlines were able, during the ATC strike, to arrive on United Airlines from SFO in Sydney and then that aircraft would continue on to Brisbane and carry Australian passengers who were solely travelling between Sydney and Brisbane

Could you elaborate on what ATC strike you're referring to? A quick google search only reveals a 1977 ATC strike, and a 1989 pilots strike. I assume you're referring to the latter? Both of those are well before my time so I'm not sure what is being referred to.

 

[ozflier]

I don't believe they do so any due to brexit issues? But yes, you're right, I did completely forget to mention the European single aviation market as a big exception to the rule.


Could you elaborate on what ATC strike you're referring to? A quick google search only reveals a 1977 ATC strike, and a 1989 pilots strike. I assume you're referring to the latter? Both of those are well before my time so I'm not sure what is being referred to.

Oops Senior's moment
Definitely it was the Pilots strike in 1989.

1989 Australian pilots' dispute - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As well as foreign airlines carrying domestic passengers , the RAAF were roped in to do domestic legs .

(I do also remember the ATC strike in 1977 as I was stranded in Singapore!)