Qantas A220 to do trips to Asia opening new opportunities (rumor)

[RichardMEL]

I just hope QF actually puts a respectable J product on the A321XLRs. Preferably lie flats, but at the very least something like the Collins Air Rest on Oman/Cathay. I don't think I would enjoy a Collins MiQ or similar for such a long journey (unless QF sells it at PE prices, but we all know they won't).

Well the first tranche of A321's will have a standard J product unfortunately but I suspect these will be used for mostly domestic and possibly trans-tasman.

Hopefully further deliveries for longer, thinner routes into Asia would have a product (J and Y) to at least take a shot at competing - specially where return flights will likely be overnights.

 

[RichardMEL]

And that is a problem? Why fly direct when you can fly indirect? I am on the East Coast and I have never flown direct to NZ even though I could have. QF provides more SC for flying indirect.

hard to imagine I know but many prefer to go direct - specially when price and timing would be a factor and don't care about things like points, status etc. I know the old joke of course and am more than happy to go indirect myself, but we're a niche group who work to maximise such things.

Joe public wants those direct flights (and hopefully at a decent price) and this is exactly the markets products like the A220's and A321XLR's are primed for.

 

[RichardMEL]

starting to replace the dash 8s?

It's an interesting question isn't it? Noting the Dash8's slowly being phased out in other places (think AS* retired their last one recently) but there's probably still a place for the DH8 in regional Oz - some places may not even take the larger jets. I'm thinking of places like ARM for example.

Given Australia's widely dispersed populations in NSW and specially QLF (and also thinking of places like LDH) there's probably going to be a place for these aircraft, or class of aircraft, going forward.

I suspect things like weight and so on aside, the capacity of the A220 is just too high for most DH8 routes.

 

[Melburnian1]

There are flights by SQ, FI, GF, SK, SV, TP, B6, CM, AC, TS and others flying narrowbodies on flights up to 8 hours long.

You missed PR: BNE and PER to MNL, 12 lie flat seats (2-2) in J.

Not my choice: I prefer widebody A333s from SYD or MEL.

 

[Melburnian1]

Rubbish. You're totally ignoring the hash realities.

Unpleasant comment.

2. You may have your head in the sand but narrowbodies have been commonly used trans atlantic flights of 6-8ish hours (akin to ADL-SIN) for years and years.

I don't think AP has 'head in the sand'. Many Australians (and others) dislike narrowbody aircraft full stop, and if on routes of longer than two hours, the dislike becomes even stronger. If the market prefers widebody aircraft, then operators without these may struggle (although many don;t research this prior to their trip).

I think there is an inherent bias for widebodies. I do absolutely understand this - specially in J - but SQ's 737 MAX J, B6 Mint in the 321, even lie flat seats on the likes of UA mean that J can still work in a narrow body.

It's not just in J: in Y, it's perceived as more spacious if one's in a two-aisle plane.

You might call it cheap - but I do not.

It's not just 'cheap', but some would call it 'horrible'. Being blocked when one wants to go to a rear loo by a trolley, or attendants walking up and down.

 

[Quickstatus]

the capacity of the A220 is just too high for most DH8 routes.

And the economics of a fully depreciated turboprop Vs a new jet puts the DH-8 and the S-34 in front.

 

[RichardMEL]

Unpleasant comment.

Fair, I'll accept that and apologise to AP, but I do find it somewhat frustrating that on the one hand some people (not AP in particular) complain there's no service on some city pair they desire or that they had it and it disappeared, but OTOH if the notion of service potentially resuming appears, such as the supposed ADL-SIN, there's also complaints if it's not the super widebody they want.

I get it, I'd like a widebody with a proper J or F cabin and service on every flight.. but that's just not going to be a thing.

I don't think AP has 'head in the sand'. Many Australians (and others) dislike narrowbody aircraft full stop, and if on routes of longer than two hours, the dislike becomes even stronger. If the market prefers widebody aircraft, then operators without these may struggle (although many don;t research this prior to their trip).

There's what passengers might WANT (see above) but there's what the market (ie those same pax demand - ie numbers, and would pay, ie yield) that will decide what a particular airline can afford to make work on the route. That's what I meant by "harsh realities" in my earlier post.

The operators will put on aircraft they a) have and b) can make work viably onto a route, or not fly it at all. For example, for QF clearly the 767 that used to do ADL-SIN as QF81/82 (IIRC) clearly became uneconomic to do so, To an extent they don't "care" what the flying public prefer, but what they'll pay for. Given the vast majority of pax (again, take the average member of AFF out of this as most of us have far more interest and knowledge of aircraft and product than the average person who wants to go from A to B does) purchase on price, and to a lesser extent schedule, or loyalty (corporate or FF) that for the vast majority it doesn't matter that much.

I agree that most would be surprised and dismayed when the purchase J on SYD-DPS or BNE-PER and get a 737, and those in the know will avoid them, but the majority buying on price or schedule will not worry.. and a Y seat is more or less a Y seat and unpleasant (yes, I grant you a couple sitting in the 2 side of a 2-4-2 A330 is much nicer than in a 3-3 of a 737/A321).

It's not just in J: in Y, it's perceived as more spacious if one's in a two-aisle plane.

Yes, of course. I don't disagree.

It's not just 'cheap', but some would call it 'horrible'. Being blocked when one wants to go to a rear loo by a trolley, or attendants walking up and down.

Which can also happen on a widebody - I mean you've got a meal service happening on an wide, it's usually going to take both aisles.. so while one might be able to move up or down the aisle they are in while the service is going on, there's still a chance that access to a lav would be blocked in the other aisle. Of course in the much larger birds with mid cabin and rear lavs this is less an issue I agree.

All this said and agreed with, I still find the use of the "cheap"(with or without the -skate) to be somewhat odd in the context of where to deploy aircraft.

Again, my argument is not against what people prefer - no argument there - but about what makes sense for the market.

I suspect if you're the average punter and want to go to SIN from ADL, you'd FAR prefer having a direct 7ish hour flight with no stops, vs a 10+ hours transit going via MEL/SYD/PER to get there, and if the airline can provide that that would be worth it for most passengers, no matter what the aircraft type is. Even more so if looking to onward connections.

So I get it's not preferable to have a narrowbody cabin for longer flights (I myself recently chose more expensive options from east coast US to HNL over a cheaper connecting itin because it meant a widebody for 8 hours, vs 2 5ish hour A321s - and I did that both for the time saving but more importantly the cabin - in this case J for obvious reasons. Y would be a much harder choice) but I don't quite understand how it makes an airline "cheap" to offer the flight vs probably not being able to offer it at all in a bigger aircraft because the economics don't work for them.

So how is it "cheap"?

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Granted, a plane is a plane is a plane, is a plane.
And any plane will get you where you want to go, but just I do like wide body planes.
Lets just leave it at that.
And yes, I do realize my dreams are coming to an end, domestic(ally flights) speaking, in a few years time, or even sooner, as QF have put a lot of trans Aust flights now as the 737, east coast to PER and vv.
===
Cheap, when narrow body plane is concerned, its cheaper to run, less fuel burn, less cleaning staff needed, less loo paper needed, less water needed for loos/less number of loos on board, less galleys, less food loaded, so less rubbish, less number of staff ie FA, no scissor lifter needed for freight, and faster turn around, ...
===
Saw on the news that JQi in BNE is going to use the stairs now, and no longer use aerobridge at BNE int.

 

[RichardMEL]

OK so they're cheaper to operate - indeed. That's the whole point - this is what enables all these routes.

But how does that impact on customers in a material sense? I mean yes sure, the aisle blocking issue, possibly a bit less choice in food offerings depending on galleys (though the A321XLR's used on medium haul international seem to do OK) and perhaps a higher ratio of FAax (and also lavsax) but none of the operational costs you mentioned probably have much material bearing on the customer - specially if it means they can have a nonstop flight where they want rather than a connection which could be bothersome. Customers don't give a toss if the plane is more fuel efficient or cheaper to rn for the airline. They probably prefer the nonstop flights, hopefully at a cheaper price, and mod cons like streaming, wifi, USB ports able to power an iphone(see other thread ) and of course a newer aircraft is probably going to be far more reliable too.

Also Poochie, the A32x series cabins are wider a bit than the 737's which allows for a little extra room-ie slightly wider seats in Y - so they actually offer a (sligtly) better experience than the 737's they'll replace - if it's on ADL-SYD, ADL-AKL or ADL-SIN...

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Not forgetting the cardinal rule, connections, esp with QFF will earn more SC.

 

[TheInsider]

Not forgetting the cardinal rule, connections, esp with QFF will earn more SC.

Your general flyer out of this very small community doesn't care about SC and probably wouldn't even know what type of aircraft they are travelling on. People still think Qantas operate the 747.
Some (ground) staff don't even know the difference between a B787 and A330.

 

[milehighclub]

Qantas just increased the order to 29

 

[RichardMEL]

It comes down very simply to the majority of paying customers - have a non stop and quicker/less hassle option to wherever they want is going to trump just about every other option (unless cost is prohibitive - such as Project Sunrise will seemingly have a real premium cost - but this is going to be a specific special case due to the nature of the flights). Again, not talking about niche people like myself and many others on here who care about things like status credits, aircraft type, potentially lounges and all the rest.

I reckon if you stop average person on the street saying "you're going to get a new flight from here to X" - if that's a place they want to go - the majority will be all for it - specially if it's at timings they'd prefer.. and I imagine very few would be asking "What aircraft is it? will it be in 3-3 or 2-3 config?" I think it more would be "How much will it cost and what times will it fly?"

Take how the E190 opened up routes like ADL-OOL and ADL-CNS - which prior to then meant connecting in SYD/MEL/BNE - a huge savings in time and convenience for those pax. The 220 could well take some of those routes on, specially if QF wants to deploy E190's on routes like BNE-CHC.

These A220's will allow for some new regional routes, offer schedule flexibility and/or frequency on some other lighter routes (think tassie flights where say 2x220 may replace a 737), and so on.

 

[Quickstatus]

People still think Qantas operate the 747.

Had a friend who said he was booked to fly on a 747 aircraft in March - to ADL . Was excited and wanted to know if his J seat meant he could be upstairs.

Those who know will know what I mean.

 

[Quickstatus]

For those who don't get it
He booked the flight QF747 SYD-ADL

 

[dajop]

Had a friend who said he was booked to fly on a 747 aircraft in March - to ADL . Was excited and wanted to know if his J seat meant he could be upstairs.

Does he own a DeLorean?

 

[jakeseven7]

Any guesses as to the route for the first inaugural commercial flight?

A Canberra route?

Maybe a Tassie route?

 

[TheInsider]

Any guesses as to the route for the first inaugural commercial flight?

A Canberra route?

Maybe a Tassie route?

A220 base will be MEL. So out of there to somewhere. I reckon a MEL-SYD, just so SYD can get a familiarisation with it too.

 

[docjames]

Some routes I’d have thought fitted size and range:

BNE-POM or CNS-POM
BNE/SYD-MEL - VLI
ADL-NAN (seasonal)
MEL-BME, SYD-BME
MEL-NTL, MEL-TSV, MEL-ROK


They’d have the option to increase frequency to DRW ex-PER and ADL too. Could be a useful aircraft to “step up” a route without adding a 738/A320 worth of capacity.

There would be DPS options and MNL options too.


Will also depend on cabin figment - it’s its crammed for MEL-LCN or MEL-HBA type flying, then it’ll be long and uncomfortable to DPS Or MNL..

 

[dajop]

Probably also a good size for WLG routes.