Profiling through customs

[dajop]

I guess it all depends on which reports we read, who the authors are and what the motives are.

Some articles suggest profiling, behavioural or otherwise, is no better than a coin toss. That it doesn’t really work except, perhaps, for some highly trained experts who might have a slightly better than 50% chance.

Would it not depend on what you're looking for? If you are looking for a biosecurity concern (people bringing in seeds, fresh foods etc), probably profiling to some degree does help.

 

[drron]

The Israelis certainly believe in profiling.And at airports it seems to work particularly well.

 

[juddles]

The Israelis certainly believe in profiling.And at airports it seems to work particularly well.

They are the most hated nation (by the terrorists) and yet have an amazing track record. Political correctness never got in their way.

 

[mannej]

Airlines certainly profile in some of the policies that have been implemented

 

[juddles]

Another aspect to this is the impact our personal beliefs and attitudes are. I read all the time about the affront of personal searches or, god forbid, a swab for explosives. I work differently. Not only do I understand and respect the need for such thing, I go completely the other way. I get chosen normally for checks (my appearance doesnt help) but rather than being testy, I try to make each of these encounters really pleasant for the security person. I smile, I gladly open my bags, or get pat-down. I greet and thank each time. They appreciate that. I leave each of these encounters feeling GOOD.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Maybe you should try tell the Israelis that

As for "highly trained experts", who knows what such a thing is. I can attest that if you are professional, and dedicated to your work, experience will make you very very good.

And what do you mean by "diversity" in customs? (let's get away from policing )

Well that’s the thing. According to which reports you read, the Israeli superiority at security may have little to do with profiling and everything to do with the 100% thorough security screening they do. Unlike some other airports where screening can appear cursory, at best.

Highly skilled professions in the context i mentioned is - supposedly - exactly that. People who spend their life doing profiling research and implementing it. That is, it’s their profession. Unlike customs or police where the profiling is simply a tool.

Does experience make you good if you have a 90% failure rate? Personally i’d rather have customs standing doing nothing than subjecting innocent people to invasive searches just for something to do.

 

[juddles]

Well that’s the thing. According to which reports you read, the Israeli superiority at security may have little to do with profiling and everything to do with the 100% thorough security screening they do. Unlike some other airports where screening can appear cursory, at best.

Highly skilled professions in the context i mentioned is - supposedly - exactly that. People who spend their life doing profiling research and implementing it. That is, it’s their profession. Unlike customs or police where the profiling is simply a tool.

Does experience make you good if you have a 90% failure rate? Personally i’d rather have customs standing doing nothing than subjecting innocent people to invasive searches just for something to do.

Unlike customs or police where profiling is merely a "tool"??? I cannot speak as a airport person, but I can as a police officer. You spend your life "profiling" in many different ways, and it IS your profession. It keeps you alive.

"90% failure rate"??? Are you against alcohol random breath tests? Using your descriptions, these run at over a 99.5% "failure rate". Should innocent sober motorists be saved from such indignation?

 

[juddles]

Sorry Mel-traveler, I am letting my own life experiences cloud my judgement. I have had to go find parents and inform them their child was just killed by a drink driver. So I get over-emotional. And thus defensive of others such as airport staff that have to do a job which upsets good citizens.

So I will leave this thread, "agreeing to disagree". I admire and value your contributions to AFF and I also get you speak from a different life experience.

There is no magic solution to aircraft security - the authorities just try to do what they can.....

 

[oz_mark]

While profiling no doubt happens, they also have an overlay of random searches as well.

All just part and parcel of international travel.

 

[leadman]

Sorry to hear juddles, that is a hard thing to do.

Didn't mean to start a "heavy" thread, but to soften it up i told my son about it. As a typical youth looking at a different view "at least people talk to me Dad, no one talks to you except when you check in!" Do i bop him one for being a smartA?????

 

[SeatBackForward]

Happens to me all the time, its unpleasant yes, but I consider it as an accepted if not necessary part of the air travel security experience. The USA is by far the worst place, but I account this more to the power trip the officials have more than any other reason.

 

[Dannyism]

Personally i’d rather have customs standing doing nothing than subjecting innocent people to invasive searches just for something to do.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the content of this debate. That's fine, we are allowed to have different opinions.

My differing opinion is as such.
I don't think they are searching people just for something to do.
I don't think they should be standing around doing nothing, even if the other option is interviewing or searching people with little more than a profile or their own discretion to go off.

 

[Dannyism]

Didn't mean to start a "heavy" thread, but to soften it up i told my son about it. As a typical youth looking at a different view "at least people talk to me Dad, no one talks to you except when you check in!" Do i bop him one for being a smartA?????

As you eluded to I think this is a generational thing. Gen Y typically enjoy exciting unique experiences, special treatment or anything out of the norm. The routine and mundane, ugh, how boring.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Unlike customs or police where profiling is merely a "tool"??? I cannot speak as a airport person, but I can as a police officer. You spend your life "profiling" in many different ways, and it IS your profession. It keeps you alive.

"90% failure rate"??? Are you against alcohol random breath tests? Using your descriptions, these run at over a 99.5% "failure rate". Should innocent sober motorists be saved from such indignation?

Random breath testing is exactly that. Random. Everyone is stopped. This is not picking every ‘x’ car out of 100 because the driver has a beard, or is aboriginal.

Breath testing serves as a deterrent. Just like speed cameras.

That is different from profiling passengers... because they have a beard. or just because they have been to thailand. if 99% of your searches are turning up nothing, time to get new search criteria. or forget the profiling, just make it random.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the content of this debate. That's fine, we are allowed to have different opinions.

My differing opinion is as such.
I don't think they are searching people just for something to do.
I don't think they should be standing around doing nothing, even if the other option is interviewing or searching people with little more than a profile or their own discretion to go off.

‘own discretion’ can be a dangerous thing, and could introduce bias.

As i said, i’d like to see the figures of searches by customs, and how often they find something. it might be they have a 90% success rate!

 

[CaptJCool]

‘own discretion’ can be a dangerous thing, and could introduce bias.

As i said, i’d like to see the figures of searches by customs, and how often they find something. it might be they have a 90% success rate!

Bear in mind, there's Immigration (people) and Customs (goods people carry across the border eg food products from home)

The official version
Does the Department of Immigration and Border Protection use profiles to identify smugglers?

Background
https://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/full/10.1108/JICES-01-2014-0005?fullSc=1&

Profiling Checks Used to Combat Working Holiday Visa Fraud

The guy who led the creation of the process and plenty of other links
https://www.linkedin.com/in/klaus-felsche-381a7522/

My understanding is the idea is to stop people BEFORE they board a flight rather than have them get to Australia. This includes Asian ladies bonded to work illegally as slaves in red light bordellos...and pattern behaviour of stolen passports etc (if you recall the 2 lads on MH370 using false documents)

It's a big land here, and one. One could disappear for a considerable period of time. Keith Murdoch ex Rugby All Black did for 40 plus years

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re the AU border profiling. That’s all and good... if it is returning the results. As i mentioned above, it all depends on who writes the reports and what their motives are. Those justifying profiling will tell you it’s good. Those who might want to take a more objective view might want to look at the facts. And then there will be reports written by civil libertarians presenting facts totally against profiling.

The question is whether it works. One study suggests, as i mentioned above, that profiling returns little or no better than 50%.You might as well make it random and flip a coin.

Where it becomes a problem is where the same people might be stopped time after time, even though they have been found to be ‘clean’ on previous occasions. They might feel there is unfair bias at work.

 

[OZDUCK]

I have been out of Customs for 9 years so I can't claim to have any knowledge of current practices, especially since the creation of Border Force, but I can assure you that in my training, many years ago, a lot of care was taken in regards to profiling and ensuring people were not targeted simply because of the ethnicity. We were also given lots of training in regards to "natural justice" - simply put a person or company must be told what they are considered to have "done wrong", be offered a chance to explain their actions, be told what the penalty would be and also be offered a chance to appeal a decision.

In regards to a "body search" this could not be done because of any sort of power play or dislike. The person involved had to be given the explanation as to why a body search was considered necessary and asked for their consent. If that consent was refused then the officer involved would have to refer his decision to a "decision maker" to request that the search go ahead anyway - and I assure you that the "decision maker" takes this matter very seriously. I have been sitting next to officers having to make this decision, and was at that level myself, and they always fully considered and often agonised over any such request. The person involved then could request that a JP be called and make a decision about the search. Anyone chosen for this type of search has the process fully explained.

For example see
https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/Acce...uments/FOI/2015-022349-Documents-Released.pdf and JP(Qual) Unofficial Reference - Powers Under the Customs Act

I can assure you that the JP is not some favourite chosen by Customs. As I recall, there was a panel of JP's who who would partake in the process - and I know for a fact that they also took their function extremely seriously and didn't have any particular allegiance to Customs.

No officer is going to go through this process for a trivial reason

Edit: I am of course only talking about a basic external search, the internal search process is way more complicated and bound up with legalities.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Of course the rules are there. Of course the rules will make it clear searches can't be don't without satisfying certain criteria. But that doesn't mean the rules aren't sometimes pushed to the boundaries. It doesn't always mean passengers feel empowered to challenge decisions.

That doesn't however address the issue of profiling. Or whether profiling is effective. Or whether the outcomes of profiling result in addressing the harms they are supposed to reduce in a meaningful way. That's where statistics would be useful.

 

[JohnM]

That's where statistics would be useful.

To a point - it's rare outliers (aka 'Black Swan Events') that can confound the whole issue - and drastically.