Plane crash at Essendon DFO

[jb747]

Very sad. I don't know a lot about this sort of thing, but I imagine the pilot reduced the loss of life by not crash landing on the freeway or into houses.

I expect that he had very little say in where it ended.

My understanding the pilot was turning back.

Why do you think that? Because it had turned away from the runway direction?

Procedurally, cleaning up and accelerating straight ahead is the best solution. Turning will always give a reduced, and perhaps negative, rate of climb.

Catastrophic failure - both engines failed?

The term 'catastrophic engine failure' doesn't mean "the engine failed, so now we have a catastrophe". It means the engine has failed in such a way that the ENGINE is destroyed...nothing else.

Dont need both engines to fail to cause this...

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20141030X24112&key=1

More on the same event: The Kathryn Report: Beechcraft B200 Super King Air, N52SZ: Fatal accident occurred October 30, 2014 in Wichita, Kansas

And much closer to home: http://aviationcollection.org/Advance Airlines/802-1017.pdf

 

[straitman]

Just to put a little perspective on the aircraft and engines we are discussing.

The Beechcraft Model 200 King Air is a twin-engined turboprop corporate travel and utility aircraft with retractable landing gear and pressurized cabin produced by the US-American manufacturer Beech Aircraft Corporation, later Hawker Beechcraft Corporation, today Beechcraft a brand of Textron Aviation. The SUPER prefix was dropped in 1996 for all Super King Air models (200/300/350).

The King Air 200 has 2 X Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-42 engines which are one of the most reliable types available. Versions of the PT6 engines are in numerous aircraft and helicopters worldwide including the PC 9s that the Roulettes use, the Bell 412 & AW 139 ambulance helicopters and the later model King Air 350s that the RAAF use.

More than 6,600 aircraft of the King Air line have been delivered and are operated by corporate, commercial, military and special mission operations in more than 94 countries.

In summary they are an extremely reliable aircraft.

 

[jb747]

Have you flown them Bill? From a glance at the specs, it would seem to have good engine out capability. The Sydney event was negatively affected by the temperature of the day, and by a company (unapproved) reduced thrust technique.

 

[straitman]

Have you flown them Bill? From a glance at the specs, it would seem to have good engine out capability. The Sydney event was negatively affected by the temperature of the day, and by a company (unapproved) reduced thrust technique.

I have not flown them.

Talking to the guys from 32 Sqn, they have nothing bad to say about them and their single engine performance is pretty good I'm told. I'm going to the ESL Officers Mess on Thursday night so I'll pick some brain though I'm sure the discussion will go there anyway.

I have flown PT6 engines and never had an issue with them.

 

[Quickstatus]

Are the turbo props contra rotating?. If not then potentially an engine out on one particular side could be worse than the same on the other side?. Worsening yaw and then roll?

 

[straitman]

Are the turbo props contra rotating?. If not then potentially an engine out on one particular side could be worse than the same on the other side?. Worsening yaw and then roll?

I would expect that they are not contra rotating. I'll ask someone and get back if/when I get an answer.

 

[jb747]

They rotate in the same direction. There's a video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5oks0BkGpE of an aircraft starting up, so you can clearly see the rotation.

It really shouldn't make a substantial difference. Info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_engine

 

[Skyring]

Sad news. I am sure we'll learn the facts of the tragedy in due course.

This has spurred a local residents' group to renew calls for Essendon's closure, on the grounds of safety. I suspect that this is based more on the grounds of noise as, even with the history of accidents at Essendon, air travel remains the safest form of transport in Australia. I would guess that the nearby motorways account for more deaths in a year than the whole of Australian aviation.

The other problem identified is that airport owners have turned to commercial development on otherwise vacant land, which reduces the amount of open space available and raises obstacles. I have heard complaints that large structures near runways can cause air turbulence on windy days.

Airports in urban and suburban areas are nothing new. Usually, the airports were there first when the land was open and undeveloped and the houses and shops came later but occasionally, as in the case of LCY, the airport is placed in the middle of existing development.

The complaints of the residents' group may be minor, but possibly they will gain support from an unexpected source; the airport owners themselves who can make far more money from commercial and residential development on such a large parcel of land than from running an airport.

 

[Simo]

All very sad...

 

[straitman]

I would expect that they are not contra rotating. I'll ask someone and get back if/when I get an answer.

Feedback from an ex RAAF/RAN friend of mine who now flies B777s for Cathay.

The props both go the same way so it has a critical engine but in the 350 it had so much control power if you flew the numbers that it was never an issue.

My personal reading of this is that a 200 would be the same particularly as it appears to have been lightly loaded.

 

[TheBOSman]

Sadly the four deceased Americans were from Central Texas, two from here in Austin and two from not far up the road from me in Spicewood, TX (about 50 kms from me). A tragic event.

 

[Guvner]

Sadly the four deceased Americans were from Central Texas, two from here in Austin and two from not far up the road from me in Spicewood, TX (about 50 kms from me). A tragic event.

Bizarrely I have friends in Austin who moved there from Essendon last year.

 

[Quickstatus]

The critical engine would be the left in the Beech King by the way the props turn? - clockwise as viewed from rear. (Not speculating on this particular accident)

 

[badseed]

Really tragic event.

I live fairly proximate to the extended centreline of RW17/35, off to the south in Flemington. We did have a group door-knocking around a year ago about the noise from Essendon so I suspect they'll be ramping up activity again.

To be honest it's not the fixed wing aircraft that bother me - more the helicopters! I actually enjoy it when the Jetgo Embraer 135's and 140's rocket over.

Told them that a bit of disruption is the price we all pay for access to air ambulance and air freight services. I suspect the 'safety' aspect will just be a convenient cover story.

 

[QF WP]

Thanks BOSman, that puts a very human view on it. I'm sure all us golfers are imagining hat it could have easily been us in different circumstances...

Sadly the four deceased Americans were from Central Texas, two from here in Austin and two from not far up the road from me in Spicewood, TX (about 50 kms from me). A tragic event.

 

[AviatorInsight]

The critical engine would be the left in the Beech King by the way the props turn? - clockwise as viewed from rear. (Not speculating on this particular accident)

Yes that's correct, irregardless of the fact it has auto feather. The diagram below shows this for props (turboprop or piston). A torque effect happens on the thrust vector of the operating engine relative to the CoG. The higher the thrust on the operating engine, the higher the torque effect. The effect attempts to yaw the aircraft towards the inoperative engine, this must be counteracted by the pilot, unless in the B777 where this is done by the primary flight computers (yes I'm aware that the B777 does not have a critical engine either).

 

[Pushka]

Thanks BOSman, that puts a very human view on it. I'm sure all us golfers are imagining hat it could have easily been us in different circumstances...

Tourists in general. We have thought of chopper flights and flights onto glaciers in Alaska. On vacation everyone thinks things won't go wrong.

 

[jb747]

The critical engine would be the left in the Beech King by the way the props turn? - clockwise as viewed from rear. (Not speculating on this particular accident)

I think the term 'critical' engine is a bit of a misnomer. There is likely to be quite limited difference between them in a modern aircraft. The decision on which is the critical engine comes from flight testing...although they'd have a pretty good idea before that. In any event, all of the performance requirements are based upon the worst case, critical engine, failure.

As you can see from the diagram, yawing moment will be greater....that simply means that more rudder is required. But the aircraft is mostly likely designed with some degree of asymmetry anyway, to counter the prop wash flows. In particular, the vertical fin may have a slight offset to one side

 

[Denali]

Tourists in general. We have thought of chopper flights and flights onto glaciers in Alaska. On vacation everyone thinks things won't go wrong.

This. A few days after we did a heli tour of Mt Cook, a helicopter crashed.

We were talking at work about someone that crashed a motorbike in Asia and I asked, "Why is when we go to some countries with min safety standards and questionable hospitals, we go crazy and start jumping on the back of motorbikes, without helmets and shoes ect? Tuk Tuks, mopeds, jet skies, hiking glaciers ect. Things we would never do at home but because where on holidays, wooo, lets do it. "

Re this plane crash, I read that their spouses are also in Australia and was off to see the Great Ocean Road. What a horrible trip home for them.

 

[Quickstatus]

I think the term 'critical' engine is a bit of a misnomer. There is likely to be quite limited difference between them in a modern aircraft. The decision on which is the critical engine comes from flight testing...although they'd have a pretty good idea before that. In any event, all of the performance requirements are based upon the worst case, critical engine, failure.

As you can see from the diagram, yawing moment will be greater....that simply means that more rudder is required. But the aircraft is mostly likely designed with some degree of asymmetry anyway, to counter the prop wash flows. In particular, the vertical fin may have a slight offset to one side

And influences the size of the vertical fin?

Apart from more rudder would a slight aileron input (roll to operating engine) be necessary to maintain level straight flight?