OTT "RSA" in the PER lounge

[JessicaTam]

I'd had a heck of a job finding the lounge to start with (had never been through MEL Int before), and was quite surprised to discover it was down in the "dungeons" with a less than impressive view of the underside of a nearby aircraft LOL. To be honest, I don't recall any frosting on the windows at all - I also wasn't feeling particularly well and had the long flight to LAX ahead of me, so maybe I wasn't taking into too many details, although I do remember watching the wet weather roll through that day and hoping we wouldn't get any storms that might delay departure!

If you go into the QF int J lounge, you will take whatever view you can get!

I actually like the view from the NZ lounge, as it shows a side of the airport that we rarely see.

 

[JohnK]

What a terrible way to treat your customers.

If I am not intoxicated it is not up to the bartender to decide how often I can have a drink.

 

[mannej]

What a terrible way to treat your customers.

If I am not intoxicated it is not up to the bartender to decide how often I can have a drink.

Actually by RSA it is up to the bartender...

 

[Fruitcake]

If I am not intoxicated it is not up to the bartender to decide how often I can have a drink.

Yes it is. The bartender has to cater to the lowest common denominator. I'd rather have the more responsible pax a bit miffed about having to walk to the bar twice than have my flight diverted because the guys in row 23 who downed four drinks each just as boarding was called started a fight half way to Melbourne.

And yes, there's dozens of circumstances where pax could get drunk without the assistance of the bartender at the lounge, how dare they judge me, I can control myself when I've had 89 beers, etc. But lounge alcohol is one of the variables that the airline can control.

 

[JohnK]

Yes it is. The bartender has to cater to the lowest common denominator. I'd rather have the more responsible pax a bit miffed about having to walk to the bar twice than have my flight diverted because the guys in row 23 who downed four drinks each just as boarding was called started a fight half way to Melbourne.

Doesnt happen anywhere else.

This is another of those things where they do not know how to deal with a minority so they tarnish everyone with the same brush.

 

[Fruitcake]

Doesnt happen anywhere else.

Except for the Perth and Darwin Qantas Clubs at least, according to other members.

Perhaps its a case of "glad I don't fly to perth", it's not a dissimilar experience in the QP.

Yes I seem to recall that in 2012 in the Darwin QP a similar system was in place. Each of our group had to go & get their own drink-our first drink carrier came back with only his own drink

 

[webslave]

Yes it is. The bartender has to cater to the lowest common denominator.

Er, no. That's a common misconception perpetuated by people such as yourself. In Western Australia under the Liquor Control Act, a person is 'drunk' if:
- They are on a licensed or regulated premises; and,
- Their speech, balance, co-ordination or behaviour appears to be noticeably impaired; and
- It is reasonable in the circumstances to believe that their impairment results from the consumption of liquor.

Under the Act, it is an offence for any person on a licensed or regulated venue to:
- Sell or supply, or permit the sale or supply of liquor to a drunk person;
- Allow or permit a drunk person to consume liquor;
- Obtain or attempt to obtain liquor for a person who is drunk to consume; or
- Aid a person who is drunk to obtain or consume liquor.

So, for this man to refuse service he must form a reasonable belief that their speech, balance, co-ordination or behaviour appears to be noticeably impaired, and that this impairment results from the consumption of liquor.

Looking at the scenario of picking up a drink for yourself and your partner there is no logical rationale with reference to the Act for requiring the partner to come and get a drink for themselves, since for the original request for two drinks would have to be refused with the belief that the requester was 'drunk' and therefore should not be served a drink at all, and even if that weren't the case it still constitute an offence for 'Allow or permit a drunk person to consume liquor' and 'Aid a person who is drunk to obtain or consume liquor'.

I'd rather have the more responsible pax a bit miffed about having to walk to the bar twice than have my flight diverted because the guys in row 23 who downed four drinks each just as boarding was called started a fight half way to Melbourne.

You make it sound like an either/or proposition. It's not.

And yes, there's dozens of circumstances where pax could get drunk without the assistance of the bartender at the lounge, how dare they judge me, I can control myself when I've had 89 beers, etc. But lounge alcohol is one of the variables that the airline can control.

As is customer service and customer satisfaction. What you've been provided with in this thread is a number of very reasonable scenarios from customers of at least a moderate value to VA, none of which provide even the slightest justification for an argument such as yours.

 

[mannej]

Doesnt happen anywhere else.

This is another of those things where they do not know how to deal with a minority so they tarnish everyone with the same brush.

Considering the hefty fines individuals face if they are found to be in breach of their RSA, I am not surprised about the cautious approach they take.

Er, no. That's a common misconception perpetuated by people such as yourself. In Western Australia under the Liquor Control Act, a person is 'drunk' if:
- They are on a licensed or regulated premises; and,
- Their speech, balance, co-ordination or behaviour appears to be noticeably impaired; and
- It is reasonable in the circumstances to believe that their impairment results from the consumption of liquor.

Under the Act, it is an offence for any person on a licensed or regulated venue to:
- Sell or supply, or permit the sale or supply of liquor to a drunk person;
- Allow or permit a drunk person to consume liquor;
- Obtain or attempt to obtain liquor for a person who is drunk to consume; or
- Aid a person who is drunk to obtain or consume liquor.

So, for this man to refuse service he must form a reasonable belief that their speech, balance, co-ordination or behaviour appears to be noticeably impaired, and that this impairment results from the consumption of liquor.

If you are referring to the picking up 2 drink scenario, the man wasn't refused service completely. He was told he could only get one drink. Part of the RSA obligations do refer to the harm minimisation and the actual responsible service and house policies. So I am not so sure that your original point is valid in reference to only allowing 1 drink at a time.

 

[samh004]

I know this is a VA thread, but saw some of the same in the QP yesterday, not allowing individuals to bring a drink back for a mate etc.

 

[Fruitcake]

What you've been provided with in this thread is a number of very reasonable scenarios from customers of at least a moderate value to VA, none of which provide even the slightest justification for an argument such as yours.

Thank you (genuinely) for a clearly very informed response. We evidently agree that this is a VA policy rather than anything obligated to them under WA alcohol service laws.

However, I agree with the policy (partly because I detest in general the antisocial effects of alcohol, and partly as a result of a couple of experiences with loud groups in the Lounge that became even louder on the plane - and moreso once one of the groups was denied service on board).

Most members including JohnK and yourself evidently don't agree with the policy (or me) and that's fine with me. I'd still pick you up a drink from the bar .

 

[webslave]

Thank you (genuinely) for a clearly very informed response. We evidently agree that this is a VA policy rather than anything obligated to them under WA alcohol service obligations. However, I agree with the policy (partly because I detest the antisocial effects of alcohol, and partly as a result of a couple of experiences with loud groups in the Lounge that became even louder on the plane). Most members including JohnK and yourself evidently don't and that's fine with. I'd still pick you up a drink from the bar if they let me .

I mean no malice, but at the same time don't like the way the consumption of liquor is demonised to the point that 'the only good liquor is no liquor' when it comes to talking RSA. That's just a me thing though, I'm sure we both agree that morons happen for a variety of reasons on aeroplanes and come from a variety of sources. Liquor both from within the Lounge and outside of it (...or on the plane itself?) is certainly one of those reasons and sources.

 

[mannej]

Thank you (genuinely) for a clearly very informed response. We evidently agree that this is a VA policy rather than anything obligated to them under WA alcohol service laws.

However, I agree with the policy (partly because I detest the antisocial effects of alcohol, and partly as a result of a couple of experiences with loud groups in the Lounge that became even louder on the plane - and moreso once one of the groups was denied service on board).

Most members including JohnK and yourself evidently don't and that's fine with me. I'd still pick you up a drink from the bar .

I agree regarding the response, however it is by law that VA do have these in-house policies. Interesting topic, it does pop up from time to time considering that the QP in PER are similar when it comes to multiple drinks...

 

[webslave]

If you are referring to the picking up 2 drink scenario, the man wasn't refused service completely. He was told he could only get one drink. Part of the RSA obligations do refer to the harm minimisation and the actual responsible service and house policies. So I am not so sure that your original point is valid in reference to only allowing 1 drink at a time.

Harm minimisation is important, but in this scenario the bartender would need to form a reasonable belief that drink #2 was also intended for the requester for that to stand up. You'll see drink limits imposed when the liquor will be consumed outside of the surrounds of the bar facility (which in this case would be the lounge itself, in which case under the license it can't be consumed outside anyway) which is typical in very large venues such as sporting arenas. Even so, the limit there is not one either.

I personally have been refused service in this scenario after taking my drink back to the table and returning to the bar for a different type of drink for my wife. As I had not yet consumed any drink, the bartender was not in a position to declare me 'drunk'.

 

[JohnK]

Except for the Perth and Darwin Qantas Clubs at least, according to other members.

So it would be partly related to the FIFO brigade?

You cannot tell me asking for a drink 10 minutes after first one is part of RSA. To refuse me service would suggest you have a very good indication I am drunk after 1 drink. Which is clearly not the case.

A much simpler solution would be to refuse to serve FIFO workers rather than discriminate against everyone.

 

[JessicaTam]

Considering the hefty fines individuals face if they are found to be in breach of their RSA, I am not surprised about the cautious approach they take.



If you are referring to the picking up 2 drink scenario, the man wasn't refused service completely. He was told he could only get one drink. Part of the RSA obligations do refer to the harm minimisation and the actual responsible service and house policies. So I am not so sure that your original point is valid in reference to only allowing 1 drink at a time.

There was also the situation where a patron was refused a drink because they had had one less than 10 minutes earlier. That is also not applying the act (as identified by webslave) properly and is being overzealous.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I'm not sure whether this even fits in this thread, but a lot of FFers have to drive at the other end of the journey. Most times I'll have 1 and at a stretch, 2 alcoholic drinks in a lounge. Very occasionally, I don't have to drive at the other end.......and even more rarely, this may coincide with an absolutely cough day where at the end I really do feel like a few ales. A few in these circumstances means perhaps between 3 and 5 depending upon how long the wait is. Is this really what RSA is all about?

On a different tangent, I can't recall seeing that tell tale line on the wine glasses which indicate 1 standard drink. (maybe I just haven't noticed it) but is not having that indication a breach of the RSA?

EDIT..........I did once indulge in more than that at SYD lounge when AMEX nicely supplied a free-flowing supply of Moet! If I recall correctly, I met DJ 1D and kevrosmith then. Luckily I was not driving at the end and even more luckily, the VA PER lounge RSA police were not invited. Even still, I think I probably pulled up at about 6 glasses although I think I recall the AMEX reps handing over the remains of the last bottle to DJ 1D and I...............and then we boarded a nice new BSI with the J seats even though we bought PE :mrgreen:, those were the days when VA had some really nice surprises up their sleeves!

 

[JessicaTam]

I'm not sure whether this even fits in this thread, but a lot of FFers have to drive at the other end of the journey. Most times I'll have 1 and at a stretch, 2 alcoholic drinks in a lounge. Very occasionally, I don't have to drive at the other end.......and even more rarely, this may coincide with an absolutely cough day where at the end I really do feel like a few ales. A few in these circumstances means perhaps between 3 and 5 depending upon how long the wait is. Is this really what RSA is all about?

On a different tangent, I can't recall seeing that tell tale line on the wine glasses which indicate 1 standard drink. (maybe I just haven't noticed it) but is not having that indication a breach of the RSA?

The line on the glass is to confirm with 'weights and measures' requirements that you are getting what you pay for. In this case there is no payment, so no requirement for a 'standard drink' size. The same reason there may not be a line on the glasses on a dining table when you buy wine by the bottle.

 

[N860CR]

Just to add to overzealous RSA application… just had my brother return from a CDG trip on Ethiad. One drink (a beer) was served before the meal, another with the meal about 90 minutes out of Sydney. When asking for another the FA refused as "The UAE is strict on being drunk". This was some 10 hours prior to landing. Eventually, one additional beer was served an hour later but that was all.

Just shows how it is very easy to use RSA as a way of avoiding providing decent service. Imagine the response that would be received to a complaint regarding the refusal of alcohol service… i think these airlines have found a good way to manipulate RSA!

 

[JessicaTam]

Just to add to overzealous RSA application… just had my brother return from a CDG trip on Ethiad. One drink (a beer) was served before the meal, another with the meal about 90 minutes out of Sydney. When asking for another the FA refused as "The UAE is strict on being drunk". This was some 10 hours prior to landing. Eventually, one additional beer was served an hour later but that was all.

Just shows how it is very easy to use RSA as a way of avoiding providing decent service. Imagine the response that would be received to a complaint regarding the refusal of alcohol service… i think these airlines have found a good way to manipulate RSA!

I think your brother's situation may be slightly different. This could be a cultural matter and not RSA.

 

[N860CR]

Perhaps, but the point I'm more trying to make is that RSA (or whatever it is to be called) is an easy way to cover up bad service, just as VA seem to be doing with this PER staff member. Any complaint would no doubt be followed up with a statement about RSA, passenger safety etc and not address the issue.

Years ago I lodged a complaint with QF about Alliance not operating the Qantaslink bar between ROK and BNE when they were running the services and was accused of basically being an alcho and told "an hours not really long enough to have a drink anyway, is it?". Unfortunately we've gotten to the point where companies can use this alcohol line to cover up bad service.