Op-down from J to Y: No fare difference refund on Hong Kong Airlines

[ktamhkg]

Sharing a data point from a recent involuntary downgrade from J to Y with Hong Kong Airlines.

It happened on the KIX-HKG leg of a paid ticket. At check-in, we were told we had been downgraded from J to Y (ouch!). They offered HKD 800 compensation per pax on the spot, plus the fare difference to be claimed later. That made sense to us, but the compensation came with a legal waiver so we did not take it.

After we landed, we emailed HX and they replied that there was “no fare difference”, so no compensation was due. They brought up the HKD 800 offer again, but this time the paperwork included not only a legal waiver, but also an NDA. (I obviously didn't take it either!)

For context, we were travelling with an infant. Despite their published statement that passengers travelling with children will be given priority, it appears that it applies specifically to op-down due to overbooking.

I'm attaching their reply with personal info redacted, in case anyone is interested.

 

[muppet]

Unless you had an extraordinarily discounted business fare (like $2k return Australia-HKG-KIX) then yeah you’ve been ripped off.

Thanks for the data point, I have no advice sorry. Will be very frustrating for you to get your money back.

Assuming a $3-4k return fare, I’d say $3-400pp is more reasonable based on flight lengths etc. but may not be worth the stress persuing. If you never want to fly them again (which I assume) then you could try credit card charge back.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thanks for the heads up.

Was this sector part of a longer itinerary?

It might well be - given the way airlines calculate these things - there was little or no residual value in the overall fare for this one sector. Especially if the airline calculated the downgrade based on a full walk-up economy fare.

that sucks, but it might mean the HKD800 is about as good as it’s going to get.

 

[Dmac59]

Sharing a data point from a recent involuntary downgrade from J to Y with Hong Kong Airlines.

It happened on the KIX-HKG leg of a paid ticket. At check-in, we were told we had been downgraded from J to Y (ouch!). They offered HKD 800 compensation per pax on the spot, plus the fare difference to be claimed later. That made sense to us, but the compensation came with a legal waiver so we did not take it.

After we landed, we emailed HX and they replied that there was “no fare difference”, so no compensation was due. They brought up the HKD 800 offer again, but this time the paperwork included not only a legal waiver, but also an NDA. (I obviously didn't take it either!)

For context, we were travelling with an infant. Despite their published statement that passengers travelling with children will be given priority, it appears that it applies specifically to op-down due to overbooking.

I'm attaching their reply with personal info redacted, in case anyone is interested.

A very disappointing experience @ktamhkg
I haven’t heard of airlines utilising an NDA, but longer term AFF members may have knowledge of or experienced same.
Not sure about the “no fare difference” between your J ticket and your Y flight. Is it possible that the $ paid for your J ticket was during a sale and the price paid was in fact equivalent to Y Flex fare.

And welcome to posting on AFF @ktamhkg

 

[ktamhkg]

Thanks for the heads up.

Was this sector part of a longer itinerary?

It might well be - given the way airlines calculate these things - there was little or no residual value in the overall fare for this one sector. Especially if the airline calculated the downgrade based on a full walk-up economy fare.

that sucks, but it might mean the HKD800 is about as good as it’s going to get.

The ticket was a HKG-KIX roundtrip, but I bought it before the oil price hike (HKD 7,805 per pax). So you are right — the going rate for a full-fare Y class, less the J-class leg I flew, probably exceeds what I paid!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The ticket was a HKG-KIX roundtrip, but I bought it before the oil price hike (HKD 7,805 per pax). So you are right — the going rate for a full-fare Y class, less the J-class leg I flew, probably exceeds what I paid!

That’s sucks though.

Ideally they would refund the difference between the business and economy class fares at the time of booking, not on the day of travel. EU261 deals with that, and Qantas now has a similar downgrade policy of 75% of the fare.

IIRC in the USA they base the refund against the lowest fare paid in economy for that flight… whenever that was booked.

I know it’s not the first thing that people think of, but taking a screenshot of the available economy fares whenever you book a ticket in a higher class can sometimes be useful in circumstances like this. It may not work in jurisdictions where they don’t have have strong consumer law through.

 

[ktamhkg]

A very disappointing experience @ktamhkg
I haven’t heard of airlines utilising an NDA, but longer term AFF members may have knowledge of or experienced same.
Not sure about the “no fare difference” between your J ticket and your Y flight. Is it possible that the $ paid for your J ticket was during a sale and the price paid was in fact equivalent to Y Flex fare.

And welcome to posting on AFF @ktamhkg

Yes, it does sound odd, especially for a straightforward case like this one. The form is titled "Settlement Agreement and Full and Final Release of Claims." My guess is that it is a standard form designed for more elaborate complaints, but they use it for everything regardless.

 

[NM]

While it is common practice for many airlines to calculate fare differences using the full economy price and not a discounted economy fare that was available when the original business class booking was made, I believe it is wrong and the airlines should not be able to base the difference calculation that way. It should be based on the cheapest economy fare that was available at the time of booking or the cheapest fare actually paid by any passenger on the flight.

 

[Ansett Nostalgic]

File a consumer legal complaint in HK against HK Airlines.

 

[GDale]

EDIT: commentary below is not relevant for the OP's circumstances, as it appears that the ticket was just a HKG-KIX-HKG return journey.

Without meaning to defend them, I suspect what's happened here is that your KIX-HKG-[Australia] ticket is a through fare on a single fare basis (e.g. "Japan to Australia Tactical Return Fare" or something like that). Under these kinds of fares, my understanding is that the connector leg being in economy or business doesn't generally impact the fare itself (but may change the taxes slightly), so that's probably why HX agents saw no change in fare to refund you when they checked on their system. Had you been downgraded the whole way, the outcome probably would have been different I think.

The alternative way they could've assessed it is that after your downgrade, they broke up the through fare into two separate fares, e.g. KIX-HKG economy fare + HKG-Australia business fare. When they do something like this, whether they use the fare in existence at the time of original ticketing or the fare in existence at the time of the downgrade, the HKG-Australia fare would probably have been quite a bit more than the original KIX-Australia fare (since HKG-Australia is a non-stop route and would usually attract a premium), again resulting in the same conclusion that no fare difference is owed to you for the KIX-HKG leg as a result.

None of this is to say that the process is fair, since the ultimate outcome is one of your four sectors being inferior to what you originally paid for. However, because of the above, I think it's useless to fight with a low level agent following a standard process; you need a human who can see the unfairness in this, and my recommendation is you need to put forward your own number that would satisfactorily addresses the unfairness, and fight it through non-standard channels (consumer affairs, small claims, etc).

 

[NM]

The ticket was a HKG-KIX roundtrip, but I bought it before the oil price hike (HKD 7,805 per pax). So you are right — the going rate for a full-fare Y class, less the J-class leg I flew, probably exceeds what I paid!

Without meaning to defend them, I suspect what's happened here is that your KIX-HKG-[Australia] ticket is a through fare on a single fare basis (e.g. "Japan to Australia Tactical Return Fare" or something like that).

@GDale Not sure where you got the impression the ticket included Australia. According to @ktamhkg , it was a "HKG-KIX roundtrip" and given ticket price they quoted in HKD, it would seem reasonable to assume this was just HKG-KIX-HKG and not a ticket commencing in or terminating in Australia.

 

[GDale]

@GDale Not sure where you got the impression the ticket included Australia. According to @ktamhkg , it was a "HKG-KIX roundtrip" and given ticket price they quoted in HKD, it would seem reasonable to assume this was just HKG-KIX-HKG and not a ticket commencing in or terminating in Australia.

Ah my fault! The use of "leg" implied there being multiple in my mind, but the OP did indeed clarify this in that subsequent post. I'll try to edit my original post to mark it as being irrelevant for the current circumstances.

 

[FlyingKangaroo]

Hong Kong Airlines' conditions of carriage are very vague on this:

In your case, "applicable laws" means Hong Kong, where you bought your ticket and your travel originated.

You will likely not be surprised that Hong Kong does not have specific statutory laws governing involuntary airline downgrades. The Montreal Convention also applies and requires airlines to refund the fare difference between the class you purchased and the class you actually flew, but it does not require a specific method to calculate this.

TL/DR --- while I would be furious if I were you, realistically there's not much you can do here. You could press for evidence of how they've calculated the lack of a fare difference and/or push for a higher compensation amount, and also include language that you reserve the right to pursue this matter further if an agreeable resolution cannot be reached which might prompt them to give you more, but otherwise, you might need to cut your loss here.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Hong Kong Airlines' conditions of carriage are very vague on this:
View attachment 509611
In your case, "applicable laws" means Hong Kong, where you bought your ticket and your travel originated.

You will likely not be surprised that Hong Kong does not have specific statutory laws governing involuntary airline downgrades. The Montreal Convention also applies and requires airlines to refund the fare difference between the class you purchased and the class you actually flew, but it does not require a specific method to calculate this.

TL/DR --- while I would be furious if I were you, realistically there's not much you can do here. You could press for evidence of how they've calculated the lack of a fare difference and/or push for a higher compensation amount, and also include language that you reserve the right to pursue this matter further if an agreeable resolution cannot be reached which might prompt them to give you more, but otherwise, you might need to cut your loss here.

Local law is not only the place you bought the ticket. For example, you may have bought a ticket in Australia, but departing the EU you are subject to local laws for the operation of EU261.

In this case, it would be whether there are any involuntary downgrade laws in Japan, as well as Hong Kong.

I’m not sure how the Montreal Convention applies here, at all? There was no delay, cancellation or injury. What specific section are you looking at for MC99?

 

[FlyingKangaroo]

Local law is not only the place you bought the ticket. For example, you may have bought a ticket in Australia, but departing the EU you are subject to local laws for the operation of EU261.

In this case, it would be whether there are any involuntary downgrade laws in Japan, as well as Hong Kong.

I’m not sure how the Montreal Convention applies here, at all? There was no delay, cancellation or injury. What specific section are you looking at for MC99?

You're correct: no delay/cancellation prompted this, so apologies, MC does not apply.

Also: yes, if the downgrade occurred on the Japan-Hong Kong sector, Japanese law will also apply. Unfortunately, Japanese law, like HK, does not regulate this and thus leaves this to airlines to manage in their Conditions of Carriage. So for Japan and HK, Hong Kong Airlines' Conditions of Carriage essentially put you in a meaningless doom loop: you're entitled to compensation as per applicable law... which doesn't exist and instead defaults back to the contract that redirects you to applicable law.

(Pax here has indicated they purchased the ticket in HK and as a HK-Osaka ticket, so Australia or other laws don't apply.)

As an aside: this situation really reveals how exposed pax are in jurisdictions without consumer laws that substantively address these kinds of situations. Theoretically, if an airline was entirely silent on the issue in the Conditions of Carriage, you may find yourself with no contractual remedy and instead have to try to sue them in tort. Not fun.