OH&S gone mad

[leadman]

Trolling through my old flash drive and came across these snaps from the Sheraton FRA. How could you even get your head in and close the door! The message must be for hamsters!

 

[straitman]

Trolling through my old flash drive and came across these snaps from the Sheraton FRA. How could you even get your head in and close the door! The message must be for hamsters!

A generic sticker perhaps.

 

[serfty]

Maybe don't put your pet kitten or puppy in the safe for an extended period.

 

[Legoman]

You say it like it's a past thing we don't need to bother about anymore. OH&S has always been and continues to be a job-creation conspiratorial waste of everyone's time and money. Unfortunately no-one can ever say so, because they'll be shouted down by all the do-gooder hippies telling them to stop channelling Jeremy Clarkson + Bob Katter, but the fact remains that a bogload more useful stuff(*) got done in days past than does today. Man on the moon, Snowy River Hydroelectric power scheme, Concorde etc... all projects that could never happen today thanks to the paralysing effects of environmental concerns and the stifling OH&S.

I can't name one thing of significance Malcolm Turnbull has achieved since he became PM. I've heard a lot of waffling and claims of doing things, but nothing real actually springs to mind apart from wasting $122mil on a poll about something we're not allowed to discuss in here.
Our whole economy is built on China buying our stuff

(*) - technical term

 

[Hvr]

OH&S has always been and continues to be a job-creation conspiratorial waste of everyone's time and money.

Too true, asbestos was an awesome product and lead in paint just made it oh so good. Things like seat-belts and glass that shatters rather than shards are way too expensive. Safety harnesses are just so expensive and once they've saved a life they can't even be reused! There are myriad other examples of where people's live have been saved because of those pesky OH&S laws. I mean you can't even smoke in the workplace now.

It was so much easier just to kill or permanently disable people than to treat them with dignity and respect.

end sarcasm.

 

[james4321]

You say it like it's a past thing we don't need to bother about anymore. OH&S has always been and continues to be a job-creation conspiratorial waste of everyone's time and money. Unfortunately no-one can ever say so, because they'll be shouted down by all the do-gooder hippies telling them to stop channelling Jeremy Clarkson + Bob Katter, but the fact remains that a bogload more useful stuff(*) got done in days past than does today. Man on the moon, Snowy River Hydroelectric power scheme, Concorde etc... all projects that could never happen today thanks to the paralysing effects of environmental concerns and the stifling OH&S.

I can't name one thing of significance Malcolm Turnbull has achieved since he became PM. I've heard a lot of waffling and claims of doing things, but nothing real actually springs to mind apart from wasting $122mil on a poll about something we're not allowed to discuss in here.
Our whole economy is built on China buying our stuff

(*) - technical term

I think your first paragraph is nonsense, but I agree 100% with the second!

 

[Legoman]

Too true, asbestos was an awesome product

You're right it was! It's a perfect example of how OTT OH&S has gotten to the point of the cure being worse than the disease. Worse than that, industires with vested interests are now actually using the manufactured paranoia over asbestos to discriminate against perfectly valid hobbies and interests that actually are doing real harm to the cultural make-up of Australia.

Asbestos is a brilliant ingredient that has in certain products, perfectly valid uses with negligible potential for harm. Brake pads + gaskets are the classic example. Ever since asbestos was banned, you have not been able to buy brake pads that do all three things you want from them: quiet, dust free, high friction/fade resistance. You can only have two out of those three from any modern brake pad. Asbestos gives you all three easily. That's modern progress for you. Going backwards for the sake of OH&S. Same is true of lead in electrical solder for PCB component joints; mercury in batteries & even the active chemical in insect repellant and stop itch cream is utterly useless these days compared to what it used to be.

There is risk in everything, that's part of life and what makes it worth living. OH&S aims to reduce all risks to zero and make life so vanilla, antiseptic and beige that you run the risk of dying from boredom. As far as asbestos is concerned, would I want it as the insulation in my roof or to have my fences and house walls made from it? No of course not, those are clear examples of over-reach for the product use simply for the sake of saving money because it's cheap. But kept for the purposes where its mechanical & thermal insulative properties are perfectly suited should be no problem at all. Banning all classic car imports for example simply because in the era they were built was when asbestos was routinely used in engine gaskets, is utterly and criminally ridiculous. Impounding multi-million $$$ world famous classic cars by AQIS and demanding their owners incur 5 figure sums of damage to have their historically significant engines dismantled so their head gaskets can be tested for asbestos before being let into the country for auction or show under threat of customs dictated incineration, is taking OH&S way, WAY too far! Yes, this is actually happening in Australia under the lobbying of the local new car importers. Australia is going to lose significant classic cars competing in world famous events like Targa Tasmania and the Motorclassica event in Melbourne which was hoping to become a Southern Hemisphere contemporary of Pebble Beach or Villa d'Este because their owners are too afraid of bringing their priceless vehicles to Australia for fear of being impounded by AQIS on arrival.

Asbestos confined inside the fibre structure of a gasket buried within the confines of a cast iron sandwich inside the sealed engine of a car poses no risk whatsoever to anyone or anything in Australia, yet because of OH&S ultimately, the citizens of Australia are being denied the opportunity to see, hear and experience these cars. How does that benefit anyone? As I said, the cure is way worse than the disease. I'd bet that Leonardo da Vinci painting that sold this week for US$400mil at auction would've had to have been incinerated on arrival if it had come to Australia too. There was white paint in it afterall, and white paint in the 1500s contained lead! OH&S alert!!!

Same thing with mercury in batteries. My car's keyfob remote came with Varta Hg batteries. They lasted 12 years before I had to open the keyfob to replace them. Of course 12 years later mercury had been banned in battery production and I had to replace them with Hg-free equivalents. They barely last 2 years now if I'm lucky. So in the first 12 years ownership I disposed of 4 little batteries containing microscopic quantities of mercury. In the next 12 years I will dispose of another 24 little batteries that contain a mixture of all sorts of other chemicals and heavy metals in place of the mercury. Seriously, which is better for the environment?

 

[Denali]

Last year I caught an employee standing on a chair with wheels so he could reach the top shelf. Idiots I tell you, idiots.

My father was involved in a workplace industrial accident 45yrs ago and as a result, he physically suffered for the rest of his life and his working life was over without compensation when he was in his 40s.

Im ok with workplace OHS. Its aim is to keep people safe.

 

[leadman]

There is commonsense OH&S and craziness OH&S and I've been ruled by both. Commonsense prevails and people understand, sticking posters up everywhere gets to be nonsense. And the comments on asbestos and lead, if you look at my tag name you can probably guess which industry i work in!

 

[defurax]

Here's another funny one, the Safety Data Sheet of pure water. Sections 5, 6 and 8 are particularly funny...I'll remember to wear gloves in the shower
MSDS - W4502

 

[Legoman]

There is commonsense OH&S and craziness OH&S and I've been ruled by both.

You're right of course, the trouble is that the very presence of OH&S and giving it a proper name and making courses for it and defining job titles for it and basically turning it into an entire industry of its own, invites its proponents to take it way beyond the extremes of what reasonable. Hiding behind OH&S to make points, stifle legitimate industry development and more generally frustrate and delay is not its role and just opportunistic. This is when someone needs to have the balls to say "enough is enough, we're all responsible adults here, we've made it this far with killing ourselves or anyone else, it's probably a fair bet that we can continue to do that without filling out endless bits of paper for filing that no-one will ever read"

Here's another funny one, the Safety Data Sheet of pure water. Sections 5, 6 and 8 are particularly funny...I'll remember to wear gloves in the shower
MSDS - W4502

Good lord, I thought that was a joke, but it actually looks real to me. Is that seriously real? I'm hesitant to comment, because I'm very suspicious it's a piss-take, but if it's not, then that's exactly the thing I'm talking about. Someone was employed and paid a very handsome wage to write that load of useless nonsense. This is what I meant by OH&S being nothing more that a job-creationist artificial construct of modern life that hinders rather than helps modern life. There are more people than there are jobs, I get that, and it's only going to get worse, but can the solution really be no better than made up BS "jobs" in made up fairytail industries like OH&S?

 

[Hvr]

This is when someone needs to have the balls to say "enough is enough, we're all responsible adults here, we've made it this far with killing ourselves or anyone else,

The problem is industry keeps proving they can't be trusted. Lets look at the emerging scandal of aluminum cladding used on buildings. There are legitimate uses on low level buildings. But should never be used at higher levels. The risks are known and the Grenfell fire claimed many lives because builders chose a cheap cladding and no one bothered to enforce the rules.


There are 5000 buildings in Melbourne with non-compliant cladding (see Lacrosse building fire) and the builders and importers of this highly dangerous product have basically gotten away with it, leaving the expense of repair to the owners and the danger to residents. This is a specific case of OH&S laws not being strong enough, enforcement weak or non-existent and the industry actors wiping their hands of respectability despite having profited from its use.

Instances like this are the reason why there needs to be strong OH&S laws with the myriad data sheets etc that cause mirth to people.

 

[defurax]

Good lord, I thought that was a joke, but it actually looks real to me. Is that seriously real? I'm hesitant to comment, because I'm very suspicious it's a piss-take, but if it's not, then that's exactly the thing I'm talking about. Someone was employed and paid a very handsome wage to write that load of useless nonsense. This is what I meant by OH&S being nothing more that a job-creationist artificial construct of modern life that hinders rather than helps modern life. There are more people than there are jobs, I get that, and it's only going to get worse, but can the solution really be no better than made up BS "jobs" in made up fairytail industries like OH&S?

Yes, it is real, but actually not enforced. This is simply an example of rigid safety rules that don't have provisions for exceptions. All chemicals which are sold need to be accompanied by a MSDS even if the chemicals are not dangerous according to the "dangerous goods" classification. Some people seems to think that exceptions are week points in legislation, but they are not, it's often exceptions that put in context things that are by comparison really dangerous.

Of course safety at work is very important, but if we behave like everything is dangerous it is then harder to put emphasis on the real dangers and employees just tune out. So I agree with Leadman on the commonsense OH&S.

 

[Legoman]

The problem is industry keeps proving they can't be trusted. Lets look at the emerging scandal of aluminum cladding used on buildings..

I take your point, but I disagree that this is an obviously specific OH&S failure. From what I've read of the case, which is a fair bit since I used to supply fire resistant panelling for use on offshore platforms and vessels in SOLAS compliance, these buildings have been clad in flammable materials in a pure & straight forward contravention of the Building & Construction Code of Australia. This is a criminal case due to non-policing of engineering requirements. This is different and more serious than a non-compliance to OH&S. It would be analogous to constructing a bridge without respect to civil engineering principals that then subsequently collapses due to forseeable loads. It's a failure of engineering regulation by developers looking to cut corners to save money and not being pulled up on it by authorities than are either complicit or incompetent for whatever reason. Either way, it's a criminal case, not a simple "we didn't know this danger existed" one, despite what those who should be prosecuted are going to use as their legal defence.

Engineers don't need an OH&S department to tell them of naturally occuring load risks, or fire risks, or the possibility of deliberate human sabotage or missed maintenance schedules. All of those things are and have always been firmly in the engineer's corner for consideration when designing and writing specifications and regulatory codes.

 

[Austman]

Being perhaps pedantic but OH&S (now WHS) has nothing much to do with many of the things raised in this thread!

OH&S (WHS) is all about workplace safety.

A room safe, building cladding etc etc that has nothing to do with actual workplace safety is not actually an OH&S (WHS) issue.

 

[mannej]

Being perhaps pedantic but OH&S (now WHS) has nothing much to do with many of the things raised in this thread!

OH&S (WHS) is all about workplace safety.

A room safe, building cladding etc etc that has nothing to do with actual workplace safety is not actually an OH&S (WHS) issue.

And further to that, OH&S isn’t about reducing a risk to zero, it’s about managing the risk.

To take asbestos into account, I am sure there are many studies about showing the rates of disease and mortality amongst the mining population compared to the general population.

 

[Legoman]

Being perhaps pedantic but OH&S (now WHS)

Actually, where I last worked, the whole department was seemingly spending their days coming up with an ever longer acronym they could keep renaming themselves to make them sound ever more important and indispensible in a way I assume that was designed as a form of job protection.

When I left I think it was up to HSEQCIT which I think stood for Health, Safety, Environment, Quality, Cultural Sensitivity and I'm not even sure what the IT was for but perhaps they were amalgamated with the computer propellor heads too?

When the HSE department had a longer acronym than the alphabet brigade promoting gay marriage, I knew they were on borrowed time. Sure enough, as soon as the mining downturn started to hit and the cost cutting began, guess which department was the very first one to be gutted!

Just to bring a modicum of airline relevency to the thread, tetraethyl lead was progressively removed from fuel for cars starting 1 Jan 1986, and yet today, 30+ years later, BP100 is still being made and used no trouble at all in all piston engine light aircraft who deliver it straight into the atmosphere to rain down widely on all of us in much higher concentrations than was ever expelled by cars running 96 RON leaded fuel. Why is this OK? Discuss.

 

[Legoman]

To take asbestos into account, I am sure there are many studies about showing the rates of disease and mortality amongst the mining population compared to the general population.

There's a fun parallel to be had with the paranoia about asbestos & diesel engines. Both products containing asbestos and diesel engines create particles which are known carcinogenic. They are both delivered right at ground level where humans breathe. They are both small and light enough to be invisible and yet heavier than air, unnoticeable and easily carried by the wind.

Despite this similarity in known toxicity, asbestos has been ruthlessly vilified to an extent than can only be reasonably described as complete overkill paranoia whereby no amount of asbestos present in any form or any concentration in any product is deemed safe, even though it's well known that only the blue asbestos kind produces the sort of fibres that can be dangerous if inhaled.

Diesel engines meanwhile have veritably exploded in popularity on the back of the rush to giant luxury 4WD's for taking the kids to school that will never leave the ashphalt in case it scratches their incredibly expensive Glasurit metallic paint jobs or their Porsche/BMW/Audi/Mercedes badges.

The difference of course is that asbestos is not sexy. No-one will be impressed at your next dinner party by some brake pads or a gasket containing asbestos. They will however be impressed by your spanky new BMW X5d which you've had to spec with the diesel engine because at nearly 2.1/2 tonne, you can't possibly afford to run the petrol version. Also, all the politicians who wield the power to ban residential/suburban/non-commercial use of diesel engines on public health grounds won't do so, because they're the very ones who can afford and love the giant black 4WD's provided in their commonwealth car allowance.

As Paul Keating once highlighted so brilliantly... "always back Self-Interest, she's a real goer"

 

[drron]

Asbestos is far from the low risk substance you believe it to be.Exposure to very little asbestos can be the cause of a fatal tumour.I happen to have presented a major study on asbestos to a medical gathering in 1973.Basically everything was known then.
The first case of asbestosis was reported in 1899.the first legal case against an asbestos manufacturer was in 1929 and settled out of court.Yet you see Wikipedia saying the relationship was discovered in the 1970s.
At our hospital we treated patients from New Caledonia.There were quite a few cases of mesothelioma with seemingly no exposure.It was found that asbestos is very common in the rocks in many places in New Caledonia.It is often associated with nickel and nickel mining is a major industry there.Yet we have this in 2007-
Cancer-hit N Caledonia launches asbestos study
And studies blaming the sealing of roads for the problem.Yet in 1975 roads outside Noumea were not sealed.Most of our cases of mesothelioma came from the countryside.And they were before 1975.
Travels with my mother - Pacific Islands - www.smh.com.au/travel/

The story of asbestos is one of criminal neglect.

 

[OZDUCK]

As the son of someone who got silicosis from working in the shafts of gold mines in Kalgoorlie, I am all in favour of OH & S. He lived a long life but it got him in the end.