New Qantas boss Alan Joyce to earn up to $4.7m

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I would think the future of air travel, for flights under 4 hours, is the LCC model, with only a few exceptions, which are covered at Qantas Group by - QantasLink & CityFlyer.

In whose view are these “key routes”? Golden Triangle & Transcontinental are key routes (domestic), but Qantas is polite enough to encourage Adelaide & Canberra to think they are at a similar level. (Maybe TSV?!?!)

One might argue that “on the ground” service levels have increased massively for premium customers. Now hosting separated lounge experiences in SYD, MEL, BNE, and brand new in CBR plus next year something in PER too. I don’t have access to the Chairman’s Lounge, but the work going on in SYD T3 at the moment looks extensive from the outside. Of course “in the air” a lack of competition and a “Cost Cutting Culture” has lead to a poorer premium product.

The pitch is less than 10% tighter on a JQ A320 than a QF B737, some people just like to complain.





As for “zero service”, I would argue in defence of SusanS’s original position – I find Jetstar’s in-air service standards to be the best of all the major domestic jet airlines. Some "in the air" examples –
  • consistency in friendly/warm welcome on board - every flight. (Although I do like the Virgin & Qantas “welcome back [insert name]” AND this is rather obviously missing in the Jetstar experience.)
  • exit row storage issue (i.e. no under seat stowage allowed) all airlines make an announcement, only JQ have a service standard where the FA will take the items from you, place them overhead and then as soon as the seat belt sign is off, return to you and ask if you would like them to fetch anything from the overhead bins for you.
  • Staff focussed on thanking you on deplaning. Staff on some airlines have so much attitude that they pretend to be looking away or doing something else when you deplane. It is deliberate, it is noticeable and it is poor quality service. The type of FAs who do this, tend not to be employed at Jetstar.
  • Tray table clearing on Jetstar is more like five star restaurant service, I often find my left over bits/packaging removed without any involvement from me. Where as on Virgin, if you don’t hand it to a FA they won’t reach over and take it (even though they; 1. obviously see it, 2. you have positioned it in a way to demonstrate it is rubbish), and at Qantas I have been yelled at for not putting my rubbish into the placemat bag.
Of course there are things I dislike about Jetstar, for example the new CEO is an idiot, having reprioritised seat allocation to a new family first policy. This includes Qantas Club/Business Lounges being locked out of exit row allocation. Joyce had a good grasp of what frequent fliers wanted from his airline; whereas this new guy is an idiot.

In regards to Virgin Blue, and its “new business/corporate” approach, it will be a long hard slog for them, working uphill all the way. There are just too many reasons not to fly them.

BULLSH!T. Any industry where a single player (Qantas Group) commands over 30% market share (domestic) is a failure of market economic principles, in my opinion. Qantas Group needs stifling regulation!

Thanks for the input, Comint!

Please consider a few observations:


-sadly, I think your prediction on LLC for under 4 hr flights out of the golden triangle may be correct
- as far as defining "key" routes are concerned my understanding is that the OOL-SYD sector is one of the most frequented in the country (so removing QF services represents a QF/JQ mindset of OOL being only a holiday destination not an appreciation of the potential product suite for that market!).
- I have yet to visit the new domestic J lounges. Others have reported that in most cases the combined lounge floor areas haven't changed so I'm not clear how this alleviates a commonly observed complaint of lounge over crowding. Now if you'd cited the F lounges in SYD and MEL.....;)
- the new lounges aren't going to hide the reality of declining domestic J product standards against a 60% fare hike in a few years
- 10% difference in pitch is about 3 inches, a significant amount. The pitch is also calculated as an average. Another thread explores this with seat maps and pitch calculations (real, not average) provided by CrazyDave (intriguingly showing that the DJ product wins out domestically for 737/A320 class jets).
- my no service comment was reporting the experiences of many travellers to CNS who have been led to believe they were travelling here from Europe on full service QF aircraft. If you've paid top dollar for full service Y, that's exactly what you should get, not a palm off onto a LCC Jetsar A320 with an unexpected stop in DRW.
- if you're having your tray etc cleared on a Deathstar flight it means you've paid extra cash for it (or are sitting in Starclass) and are one of just a few folk on the aircraft that they have to "service" with catering (a fraction of the clear up after a QF meal service).
- Personally (and appreciating that experiences differ) I haven't had any issues which would especially demarcate my experience as a customer between Deathstar and QF in terms of everyday courtesies. I have had QF cabin staff go out of their way to look after me.
 
my understanding is that the OOL-SYD sector is one of the most frequented in the country (so removing QF services represents a QF/JQ mindset of OOL being only a holiday destination not an appreciation of the potential product suite for that market!).
Perhaps, but maybe it involves the OOL airport owners repositioning themselves as a LCC airport, perhaps the proximity to BNE as an alternative for some
travellers is important, maybe Tiger putting in its own terminal there has had an effect.

It is worth remembering that the Gold Coast is Australia's 6th most populous city, not just a holiday destination.

Personally, I think Qantas Group should make more use of their QantasLink-jets (single cabin service) as part of their mix on the east coast. (But maybe the 717 can't be operated that efficiently?) Maybe some candidates for that level of service would be SYD-OOL & BNE-TSV? (And scheduled in conjunction with Jetstar services on the same routes.)
 
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Hi Platy, I can tell you're not a happy camper. I don't dispute what you are saying about a reduction in servicing some routes, and without a thorough analysis at my fingertips of the routing/schedules etc... I accept that what you're saying is true. However, the world of aviation is at a crossroad. We need to fly to get around this wonderful country of ours, and it may be that the only way to do that is LCC way. Jetstar is still growing domestically, and Q will reduce capacity, but not service standards. The key markets for Q are business between BNE,SYD, MEL. Not the routes you mention. Unfortunately if you're doing business in CNS, then you just have to accept that it is not a major business centre in the global sense and will be serviced according to how profitable the route is. By niche, I mean the most profitable corner of the market - if it happens to be high volume as well, then all the better. They are not mutually exclusive terms I believe.

Q has to raise fares( sometimes to ridiculous levels) to remain profitable on routes that aren't profitable, it's that simple. You can't have everything, you still have choice, between business class on Q or the J* experience. I never said it would be the perfect choice. I would suggest you might need to get a global perspective on this issue, and I can tell you now that SQ have just introduced the all business class service between SIN- LAX, SIN - Newark, so things are changing.

I agree that if the service isn't there, as a consumer you have every right to complain. And complain you should. However, I think if you're flying out of GC/Hamilton Is, these are generally tourist destinations as far as airlines are concerned and you may not get the service standard you would like because of that, that's just the way it is.

As for VB, they won't crack the business/premium market in a significant way - they just don't offer what Q does, and they can't without eroding their cost base until they're broke.

It's all changing, that's all I can say, and I can tell you the AGM was heated and there are lots of issues for Mr Joyce out there. I think he'll listen more than GD did and that's a good start. I don't agree with your prediction that QF service levels will drop on the key business routes, in fact they will increase, however, those not on that track will inevitably be serviced according to the best cost efficiency that can be achieved. It's a business, and at the end of the day, it's a balancing act that will never make everyone happy. The relationship between price and value is very subjective for each individual.

Do we want a profitable national airline, that makes a significant contribution to the economy on many levels, or do we want to have the American experience? Airlines going broke, jobs gone forever. Personally I think we're very lucky to have Q, J* & VB in a country this small and isolated. I don't think you can judge Q too harshly at the moment - the aviation industry is in freefall - and most airlines around the world are just trying to stay in the air. I hope Q survives and I'll do my bit to help our national airline, whatever shape it takes. As I've said before Joyce is a totally different kettle of fish to Dixon, there's a new management team coming in, so let's see what happens.

Thanks once again for the input, SusanS, (and please don't worry, I'm actually quite happy, just fascinated by all of the machinations of the industry - I also will politely complain if I sense the need, but also readily proffer glowing feedback when warranted)

There is a lot of sense in your points of view. It is, however, a little troubling that the QF Group PR machine is winning the battle to convince people that the LCC model is the only way to go for many (most domestic?) sectors and certain towns/cities are only viably considered as "holiday' destinations. The real advantage to the Qf Group of developing the Deathstar starfleet was the opportunity to reset salary levels.

As mentioned in my reply to Comint, the SYD-OOL route is one of the most frequented in Australia, but the QF Group has defined the Gold Coast as a "holiday" destination and has little interest in the many business folk and premium end holiday customers who need/wish to fly the sector. There is a viable market there, it's just QF Group has decided not to bother with it.

Business and commerce (and high end tourism) do occur in places outside SYD, MEL and ADL!!! Routes across northern Australia have been curtailed despite the resources boom. For example, on other posts you will see folk complaining of it being very hard to get flights in/out DRW at certain times of the year.

As far as your supply/demand pricing assumptions are concerned for domestic J, I do not believe that QF has their yield management maximised on some of the routes I have travelled frequently. This topic has been explored previously in other threads (and you will see that other posters don't necessarily agree with my point of view of this), suffice to say QF would not be flying aircraft with empty seats, or seats frequented by subload staff, if they had their pricing model, upgrade availabilities etc correct. It is simply easier for QF to curtail the product availability than tweak the product to improve value for customer and return for airline. You certainly don't create profitability by blindly raising fares!

I have no reason to suppose the QF group will indeed improve premium product service levels. Seven years of recent history since the demise of competition (Ansett) argues that they are firmly in the mindset of gentle and almost imperceptable erosion of product/service in an effort to accrue a creeping profit margin.

As far as "national' airline is concerned obviously QF wants an each way bet. It is happy to accept the support of national government in protecting its international routes, but not interested in supporting the local communities it deems to represent unprofitable locales. It wants to be seen as quintessentially Australian, but increasingly seeks to employ non-Australian staff. It will happily take a state government subsidy (the upcoming Deathstar OOL-CNS route) despite previously failing to enter dialogue with local tourism and business people in support of the outgoing QF SYD-CNS-NRT and BNE-CNS-NRT routes. If QF falls over, so be it, another operator will fill the void. Asserting that QF deserves some favour as a "national" airline is increasingly hard to justify.

Yes, you are right, we will just have to see what the dwarf conjures from his hat! The bulldog is gone with $20 million reasons to grin ($12 million package and a nice little $8 million super top up) and a very very lucky escape when the private equity deal fell over.

Hopefully your expectations of some Irish magic will prevail! ;)
 
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Personally, I think Qantas Group should make more use of their QantasLink-jets (single cabin service) as part of their mix on the east coast. (But maybe the 717 can't be operated that efficiently?) Maybe some candidates for that level of service would be SYD-OOL & BNE-TSV? (And scheduled in conjunction with Jetstar services on the same routes.)

I will make the prediction that the writing is on the wall for the current association between National Jet (the operator of the QantasLink 717s) and the QF Group, so I wouldn't be holding out too much hope for your idea, Comint! I suspect we will see some 717 routes quietly disappear and others get replaced by starfleet Deathstar. Once again, not too encouraging when you are sitting in CNS and the tropical north thinking about the CNS-AYQ-PER and CNS-GOV-DRW sectors, etc.
 
Not a good start for the green midget - abject failure to "sell" the upside of the BA deal. Pretty bad effort considering the PR foklk at QF have a well oiled machine!
 
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