Lost all trust in Qantas

[camperdown9]

A few years ago I was travelling with a low cost carrier and had pre paid to check a bag in. I got to the the airport and the agent at the desk said that she had no record of it. I explained that the money had gone through my account. She promptly referred me to another agent who who listened to what I had to say and then said "I don't have to deal with this" and walked off. I worked in a call centre for years and I know that passengers can be a pain in the but and some people think the louder they shout the more likely they are to get their way. However there still needs to be some customer service and maybe lots of younger customer facing employees have become unable to deal with consumers. They don't have the skills or authority to fix problems and the get out of jail card is zero tolerance.

I'm not Australian and I don't live in Australia but I do read lots of post here and from various other sites and "personal option" it feels that Australians see Qantas as an icon. As something that represents their country. Can I just respectfully suggest that maybe those days have gone and that they are just a transportation company out to make money? The Irish felt the same way about Aer Lingus, the British about British Airways and French about Air France.

Alex

 

[BAM1748]

The customer isn’t always right, but, they’re the whole point. Which is sometimes forgotten.

If I see a customer not treated the way I would want I’m happy to voice my concern on the spot and try and escalate.

Failure to point out service failures gets nothing fixed. Do it the right way, get the staff members name, make a note of date and time and I’ve rarely lost a customer service ‘argument’.

 

[RichardMEL]

I'm not Australian and I don't live in Australia but I do read lots of post here and from various other sites and "personal option" it feels that Australians see Qantas as an icon. As something that represents their country. Can I just respectfully suggest that maybe those days have gone and that they are just a transportation company out to make money? The Irish felt the same way about Aer Lingus, the British about British Airways and French about Air France.

Alex

Indeed. Fair point.

I do think more people understand that it's not the "good old days" anymore (and heh most complaints I hear about BA are from the English ) Competition, and cost cutting, I think have definitely told people that it's not the same as it was. There is still a legacy feeling towards one's "flag carrier" though by many - and an airline like QF leverages this through marketing and the like. Indeed I heard a radio interview just this morning regarding the safety of various airlines and why QF wasn't in the top 3 (and yes, "Rain Man" was quoted!) and it was downgraded by the airline ratings folks due to the incident out of PER (the A330 iirc) a few years back, but probably would return to the higher levels of rankings.

A lot of people are proud of QF's safety record (and the same for VA, NZ and others) and why not? Definitely a good thing (and on that note I'm glad I've seen very little of the usual QF bashers out there taking aim with the A380 diversion to Baku which totally was a safety priority thing, as horribly disruptive as it was).

But, safety does not equate to cabin service, airfares and other elements of customer service (such as the appalling call centres which probably contributed to some of Angela05's problems - along with so many others).

I would like to think though that members of a forum like this are far more, in general, experiences and aware of both what else is out there, and more ways to access those things.

At the end of the day though, for the vast majority of pax, it's not about the legacy feelings or pride or whatever in the flag carrier these days.. it's cheapest fare (and funnily enough that's not what QF is for most these days).

Certainly I'm more than willing to direct folks to other carriers and to look around. there's a line when it comes to loyalty benefits (ie status, etc) and smetimes the cost is too high in many ways. I think this is exactly what the OP is saying.

 

[RichardMEL]

also - I do feel the point that the people who SHOULD be listening don't appear to be - and/or are inaccessible to most.. and going through the "normal channels" to try and resolve problems with QF tends to lead most customers nowhere. I mean look at people having to resort to prodding the executive team members (eg: Tully) via email to try and get issues even acknowledged.

And I think this is the core of the frustrations (aside from the obvious ones about technology fails, policies etc)

and that leads a certain kind of personality to take that out on the front line employees. I mean this is a common occurance across many industries where customers (or in the hospital ward examples, patients) do not feel they are being listened to and "heard."

of course the underlying issues of training, IT problems etc need to be resolved to stop all of these problems from enraging people but even in the short/medium term I think it's the feelings of having no ability to actually get anyone to hear and do anything, or even attempt to, that is the biggest issue for many (in my view).

I'm reminded of the US ULCC Frontier who recently removed ALL call centres - there's no phone support. Only online chat, bots and so on. You can imagine the reaction. Now sure, QF doesn't make itself out to be a ULCC in any way but the Frontier customers who aren't digitally savvy and/or just want to talk to someone have been shafted.. and this is how many QF customers probably have felt - from the ridiculous long wait times of recent times to the poor results that some receive when they DO get through....

... and then there's next to no recourse for many just adding up to even more frustration.

The arrogance, in a way, of dominant domestic market share is part of the problem in my view. It's funny how long it's taken Telstra to listen and make mores to address issues of this nature. How long for QF?

 

[RooFlyer]

I'm not Australian and I don't live in Australia but I do read lots of post here and from various other sites and "personal option" it feels that Australians see Qantas as an icon. As something that represents their country. Can I just respectfully suggest that maybe those days have gone and that they are just a transportation company out to make money? The Irish felt the same way about Aer Lingus, the British about British Airways and French about Air France.

Absolutely spot-on. Of course Qantas plays on and promotes its legacy 'icon' status, and good luck to them. Right now they are in the incredibly fortunate situation where they have a weak (but recovering, with reputational damage) competitor domestically, very high demand, people with $ to spend, weak airline consumer protection and more, coupled with a largely un-empathetic CEO who seems hell-bent on making up for all their covid losses in the year or so before his retirement, with attendant performance bonus.

Its just like Telstra was under Sol Trujillo; in fact, I wonder if Joyce and Trujillo went to the same Business School.

 

[Quickstatus]

it's cheapest fare

Which invariably involve cost cutting and service reduction. A race to the bottom? - Air Asia for example has a new LCC competitor which aims to compete on price - as though the Air Asia prices are too high. . Most passengers just want the most direct flight at the cheapest fare. There is no one scapegoat here. It is ultimately us the travelling public who want more from less.

 

[Vic]

4. 5th flight told at check in there was a fee for bags (I had 1 bag on a business class ticket) and then downgraded from business to economy with no explanation, no apology, no refund in ticket cost.

A terrible list.
I'm wondering was this flying on a qantas plane? International or domestic?
I can't think of any situation where a checked bag in not included.

 

[RichardMEL]

Getting back to treatment of customer service staff - retail, QF, health care, whoever - in my view it shouldn't even be about if one agrees with the rules in place - health rules/masks/whatever - or if you'e pissed with the company for some reason (like your flight is delayed.

To me it's about respect and courtesy where it's due.. and to me that's where society has taken a turn for the worse (as a generalisation of course).

I'm not going to abuse a gate agent or FA/CSM if my flight has an issue. I'm not going to go off at a retail employee because there's a policy even if I disagree with it.

And this is where some people lose all perspective and inappropriately treat others to take out their frustrations or disagreements.

And it's not right. Yes. Even when one thinks a policy or thing is totally wrong (such as a requirement to wear masks - which yes is still a thing in some settings).

Many of us know what it's like to be unfairly treated for things out of our control (to quote a well known Melbourne journo - "don't shoot the messenger") and I'm also sure many of us wouldn't dream of misplaced rage at front line employees for things not of their doing or responsibility.

 

[Yearlylonghaul]

Qantas are requesting customers to be respectful to its staff, but when is Qantas going to conduct itself in the same way to its customers.
My wife and I tried to contact Qantas in July by email and phone needing help while we were on holiday in the UK. We requested a phone back or a contact via email through the Q frequent flyer avenue from memory. Ultimately we we given a reference number for our enquiry and advised that Qantas would get back to us. We are still awaiting the call back or email reply 5 months later. Our travel insurance company ultimately helped us out.
Do Qantas think they acted appropriately towards us?

 

[Quickstatus]

respect and courtesy where it's due

It seems though that even where its not due, respect and courtesy is demanded of the passenger

Respect, courtesy and loyalty is not necessarily bilateral when it comes to airlines.

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Or only when it suits them.
Though, some people do take it over the top when they assault esp overseas or berate/scream at (here in Aust) lower airline staff who are doing their job, and when poo hits the fan due to upper level management's decisions.
Then there is also when airlines make changes to save money.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

At the security checkpoint at Geraldton airport (I think one x-ray machine) there are three separate large signs with variations of messages to treat staff with respect, abuse won’t be tolerated etc etc. Fair enough but next to those three signs were the same three signs in repeat.

Six large signs. Really?

No where were any signs actually telling you what you needed to take in or take out to go through the security checkpoint. Maybe if they told people what was required at this individual checkpoint, the chance of passenger frustration and unacceptable behaviour might decrease. .

That's a pet peeve of mine at airports outside North America. Literally no consistency anywhere. Some airports you have to take your shoes off. Others you can leave them on. Some you have to take your laptops out of the bag, others you don't. Here's one that always trips me up: toiletries in a clear plastic bag outside of your bag. Like huh? Since when was that a thing? Flying through Canada or US obviously you can just leave the toiletries in your bag no issue.

A related pet peeve that always gets me is the need to re-clear security on an international connection. On what basis is that necessary? If I got scanned at LAX or SYD why on god's green earth do I need to clear security again? Indeed by IATA rules it's wholly unnecessary and we see a number of airports in the world like YVR, AMS or FRA allow passengers to catch their connecting flight by simply walking to their next gate. This by the way is why SIN will never be on the top of my list for airports - you have clear security again on international connection, often at the gate meaning you need to leave the lounge well before final boarding is called.

A few years ago I was travelling with a low cost carrier and had pre paid to check a bag in. I got to the the airport and the agent at the desk said that she had no record of it. I explained that the money had gone through my account. She promptly referred me to another agent who who listened to what I had to say and then said "I don't have to deal with this" and walked off. I worked in a call centre for years and I know that passengers can be a pain in the but and some people think the louder they shout the more likely they are to get their way. However there still needs to be some customer service and maybe lots of younger customer facing employees have become unable to deal with consumers. They don't have the skills or authority to fix problems and the get out of jail card is zero tolerance.

Sometimes it's not worth arguing with agents, especially when you can tell you won't get far with them. At the end of the day you have some sort of problem that needs solving, and the airport and the airline has many agents that can help you solve that problem. In this particular instance, I would've simply paid for the bag then initiated a charge back to the credit card later as service not provided and let the airline sort that one out.

I do think more people understand that it's not the "good old days" anymore (and heh most complaints I hear about BA are from the English ) Competition, and cost cutting, I think have definitely told people that it's not the same as it was. There is still a legacy feeling towards one's "flag carrier" though by many - and an airline like QF leverages this through marketing and the like. Indeed I heard a radio interview just this morning regarding the safety of various airlines and why QF wasn't in the top 3 (and yes, "Rain Man" was quoted!) and it was downgraded by the airline ratings folks due to the incident out of PER (the A330 iirc) a few years back, but probably would return to the higher levels of rankings.

This notion that travel was better 20 or 30 years ago needs to go away. There have always been problems travelling be it in the 1980s or 1970s. Fares were more expensive back them, routings were limited meaning you had to take more connecting flights, people could smoke in terminals and on airplanes, award redemptions weren't as lucrative as they are today (thanks in part to the emergence of alliances where you can now book awards with dozens of airlines with QF versus just a handful). What is different today is that we have a forum and community to cough and complain about the issues we experience. Pre-internet that nasty service you received in SYD or the joke of a lounge at HBA would at best be a topic of conversation at the office water cooler.

Absolutely spot-on. Of course Qantas plays on and promotes its legacy 'icon' status, and good luck to them. Right now they are in the incredibly fortunate situation where they have a weak (but recovering, with reputational damage) competitor domestically, very high demand, people with $ to spend, weak airline consumer protection and more, coupled with a largely un-empathetic CEO who seems hell-bent on making up for all their covid losses in the year or so before his retirement, with attendant performance bonus.

The economy goes through cycles and this one is no different. Frankly, I don't think Uncle Alan has done that bad a job all things considered. I know everyone loves to complain about QF but please consider airlines elsewhere in the world. What about Delta elites who spend tens of thousands of dollars with the airline yet can't access their lounge on a stinking domestic flight? What about the tens of thousands of passengers stranded throughout the United States because the cheapos who run Southwest Airlines haven't upgraded their crew scheduling software for the past 3 decades? Even the beloved Singapore Airlines had its issues, just ask those who were aiming for lifetime PPS Solitaire.

Qantas are requesting customers to be respectful to its staff, but when is Qantas going to conduct itself in the same way to its customers.
My wife and I tried to contact Qantas in July by email and phone needing help while we were on holiday in the UK. We requested a phone back or a contact via email through the Q frequent flyer avenue from memory. Ultimately we we given a reference number for our enquiry and advised that Qantas would get back to us. We are still awaiting the call back or email reply 5 months later. Our travel insurance company ultimately helped us out.
Do Qantas think they acted appropriately towards us?

Completely agree here, respect is a two way street and if the airline doesn't want to treat customers with respect by hiring enough competent staff to resolve issues in a timely and correct manner that's on them. That being said, I don't think being abusive to the agents is the answer. What's needed here are consumer protections like they have in Europe or elsewhere. Certainly if QF tried to pull the stunts they did making itineraries disappear due to slow ticketing or having a partner cancel a flight in the EU, they would be in a world of hurt!

-RooFlyer88

 

[Vic]

It seems though that even where its not due, respect and courtesy is demanded of the passenger

Respect, courtesy and loyalty is not necessarily bilateral when it comes to airlines.

There is an important distinction to be made, the airline is an abstract person separate to their frontline staff.
Putting aside loyalty, which we well know is one directional.
Frontline staff are on the whole are respectful and display courtesy in my experience. The fact the airline may treat people differently does not mean staff should be yelled at and abused. Yet there is an element that thinks it's perfectly fine to abuse customer service staff. Society is degenerating, IMO, I really don't think it's good to excuse such individual behaviour even if airlines treat pax poorly.

 

[Angela05]

A terrible list.
I'm wondering was this flying on a qantas plane? International or domestic?
I can't think of any situation where a checked bag in not included.

Apologies for the delayed response. This was a QF J ticket SEA to SYD with a QF flight number operated by Alaskan from SEA to LAX. Looks like confusion between Alaskan and Qantas.

 

[Angela05]

That's a pet peeve of mine at airports outside North America. Literally no consistency anywhere. Some airports you have to take your shoes off. Others you can leave them on. Some you have to take your laptops out of the bag, others you don't. Here's one that always trips me up: toiletries in a clear plastic bag outside of your bag. Like huh? Since when was that a thing? Flying through Canada or US obviously you can just leave the toiletries in your bag no issue.

A related pet peeve that always gets me is the need to re-clear security on an international connection. On what basis is that necessary? If I got scanned at LAX or SYD why on god's green earth do I need to clear security again? Indeed by IATA rules it's wholly unnecessary and we see a number of airports in the world like YVR, AMS or FRA allow passengers to catch their connecting flight by simply walking to their next gate. This by the way is why SIN will never be on the top of my list for airports - you have clear security again on international connection, often at the gate meaning you need to leave the lounge well before final boarding is called.

Sometimes it's not worth arguing with agents, especially when you can tell you won't get far with them. At the end of the day you have some sort of problem that needs solving, and the airport and the airline has many agents that can help you solve that problem. In this particular instance, I would've simply paid for the bag then initiated a charge back to the credit card later as service not provided and let the airline sort that one out.

This notion that travel was better 20 or 30 years ago needs to go away. There have always been problems travelling be it in the 1980s or 1970s. Fares were more expensive back them, routings were limited meaning you had to take more connecting flights, people could smoke in terminals and on airplanes, award redemptions weren't as lucrative as they are today (thanks in part to the emergence of alliances where you can now book awards with dozens of airlines with QF versus just a handful). What is different today is that we have a forum and community to cough and complain about the issues we experience. Pre-internet that nasty service you received in SYD or the joke of a lounge at HBA would at best be a topic of conversation at the office water cooler.


The economy goes through cycles and this one is no different. Frankly, I don't think Uncle Alan has done that bad a job all things considered. I know everyone loves to complain about QF but please consider airlines elsewhere in the world. What about Delta elites who spend tens of thousands of dollars with the airline yet can't access their lounge on a stinking domestic flight? What about the tens of thousands of passengers stranded throughout the United States because the cheapos who run Southwest Airlines haven't upgraded their crew scheduling software for the past 3 decades? Even the beloved Singapore Airlines had its issues, just ask those who were aiming for lifetime PPS Solitaire.

Completely agree here, respect is a two way street and if the airline doesn't want to treat customers with respect by hiring enough competent staff to resolve issues in a timely and correct manner that's on them. That being said, I don't think being abusive to the agents is the answer. What's needed here are consumer protections like they have in Europe or elsewhere. Certainly if QF tried to pull the stunts they did making itineraries disappear due to slow ticketing or having a partner cancel a flight in the EU, they would be in a world of hurt!

-RooFlyer88

Thanks for all the input. I acknowledge it is easier in that moment to just pay for the bag but it takes time and effort to seek a refund/chargeback.

And it is not really about the bag which is a small issue in the grand scheme of things. Things go wrong travelling. It is about how the airline responds when something goes wrong. And this is what Qantas is getting wrong.

Good call out on the much stronger EU protections for consumers - my missing tickets are actually EU-AU-EU so I will try that.

 

[Angela05]

A few years ago I was travelling with a low cost carrier and had pre paid to check a bag in. I got to the the airport and the agent at the desk said that she had no record of it. I explained that the money had gone through my account. She promptly referred me to another agent who who listened to what I had to say and then said "I don't have to deal with this" and walked off. I worked in a call centre for years and I know that passengers can be a pain in the but and some people think the louder they shout the more likely they are to get their way. However there still needs to be some customer service and maybe lots of younger customer facing employees have become unable to deal with consumers. They don't have the skills or authority to fix problems and the get out of jail card is zero tolerance.

I'm not Australian and I don't live in Australia but I do read lots of post here and from various other sites and "personal option" it feels that Australians see Qantas as an icon. As something that represents their country. Can I just respectfully suggest that maybe those days have gone and that they are just a transportation company out to make money? The Irish felt the same way about Aer Lingus, the British about British Airways and French about Air France.

Alex

I am (proudly) Australian and like to support Australian businesses and you are right there is a level of personal disappointment mixed with the professional disappointment.

 

[Angela05]

We are in their eyes.


Yes but have decided that it is not the airline’s fault.


Respect as with loyalty is not reciprocal in the airline industry.

Cabin announcements reflect the culture of the company, the mood of the crew, and set the tone of trip. SouthWest, Virgin and EasyJet often have hilariously funny cabin announcements. The US airlines tend to have the professional ‘we know you have a choice in airline and we value your business’ announcement. Announcements were (understandably) quite strict during covid. And I was once on a commercial flight with many refugees with the crew struggling to get people in their seats and to follow the safety instructions. Yet they have all been professional and managed to avoid the naughty child vibe that we are experiencing on Qantas. Yep everyone is frustrated when flights are canceled or delayed. But a simple ‘we are sorry for the delays and are doing everything we can to get you to your destination as soon as possible’ goes along way.

 

[Angela05]

A big thanks for all the responses.

An update on my ticketing issue. 18 days and no resolution from Qantas. Here is what I have tried so far:

1. Multiple calls to the Customer Service Centre (the various 13 and 1300 numbers). Calls connect to offshore service centres. Agents have been unable to help other than to tell me that Qantas didn’t issue my tickets.

2. Requested callbacks from a supervisor or manager. No call backs.

3. Email to frequent flyer service centre. Automated response.

4. Formal complaint to Customer Care. Automated response with a reference number.

5. Tweet on Qantas Twitter. Seems to be answered by a BOT promising to look into it and comes back asking for money (I have paid for tickets twice already).

6. Post on Qantas Facebook. No response.

7. An email to the Qantas exec team. No response.

8. A formal complaint to the Airline Customer Advocate.

9. Someone amazing from this forum has also offered to contact the Qantas media team.

Today I received an automated email from Qantas telling me I have duplicate bookings, that Qantas want to cancel, and to call a number, which doesn’t work from Europe, but does connect to an Australian service centre. The response is my payment is there, my booking is there but first I was told the flight has been cancelled (it hasn’t) and then told my seats have been cancelled and there are no seats available on the flight (or any flight that gets my kids back home in time for school).

Found this Qantas customer complaints under investigation as ACCC says airline not ‘realistic’ about flights it could serve and this ACCC monitoring airlines over price gouging concerns and whilst a complaint to ACCC won’t help my individual situation, it might help future customers.

A helpful forum member has pointed out that the EU has stronger consumer protection laws and as my flights originate in the EU this is also a potential course of action.

Any other thoughts as to how I get this resolved? I can’t believe this is what it takes…..

Will keep you updated.

 

[SydneySwan]

Any other thoughts as to how I get this resolved? I can’t believe this is what it takes…..

Unfortunately many members of this forum, myself included, CAN believe this is what it takes.

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Angela05, while I haven't been wronged by QF (as far as you got/and what others have got), touch wood/lucky in my case, they have crossed me, in minor matters.
But this is your post, not that I have an answer, but all the woes, its not a once off.
QF can be a tough cookie, ie, very hard to contend with, and who ever is in there, that decided on the outsourcing of CSA call centre staffing, is to blame.
Yours is not a once off.
They (QF) will take a hands off attitude, one side will say, contact the call centre, call center (pun, spelling the US way), say that their hands are tied, and they can't do too much to intervene in a lot of things
Best of luck.