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Just saying. QFFP does not equate to loyalty or status.

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Colster

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Posted in another thread but though it worthy of a discussion...

I think we all need to recognise that the QFF program is a separate business (almost) from that of the airline. Loyalty and the FFP need to be addressed separately IMHO.


As such, my question is related to this. Why are SCs tied to the FFP earn rate at all? Surely a more incentive based system for SCs would be fairer and simpler (tm). Why not give a higher number of SCs the more people fly in a tiered incentive program regardless of whether it's a redemption award or not. The more flights, the more SCs proportionally are offered. Obviously this would mean that everyone starts their renewal years with less SCs per flight, but as the year moves on the more flights, the higher the SCs earned per sector are on a sliding scale.

Discuss....
 

Moopere

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Or just cut to the chase and stop mucking around - link status to customer spend directly, I mean, its what they really want to do anyway, and they'd be pretty hard pressed to lose _more_ customers per month than they currently are.
 

trippin_the_rift

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Or just cut to the chase and stop mucking around - link status to customer spend directly, I mean, its what they really want to do anyway, and they'd be pretty hard pressed to lose _more_ customers per month than they currently are.
When spend and status are aligned it pushes employees to opt for expensive fares which in turn causes companies to cut flying and place heavy restrictions on travel. Or worse yet like we are seeing with Delta - companies switch contractual agreements so staff are not motivated to spend more company dollars. We'll see how it plays out in 2015 but I think moving to revenue based system is a risky move for any program without a major competitive advantage.

US Airlines are taking the risk -- but when you have 90%+ loads on flights and receive billions$ upfront cash from your biggest customers - you get cocky. Time will tell how this pans out.

QFF isn't exactly in the best position to play the revenue card but the July changes are their way of moving in that direction to see how it flys with members.
 

JohnK

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Or just cut to the chase and stop mucking around - link status to customer spend directly, I mean, its what they really want to do anyway, and they'd be pretty hard pressed to lose _more_ customers per month than they currently are.
I am not convinced Qantas would want to link status to revenue. Not directly anyway.
 

medhead

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The premise of this is false. Loyalty is the primary function of the QFF program.
 

BD1959

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The premise of this is false. Loyalty is the primary function of the QFF program.
Disagree.

Revenue is king with QFF.

Sell as many points as possible to as many "partners" as can be found. Charge your largest demographic for the privilege of being able to buy points from your largest partner (QF). Downgrade the value of those points over time to retain the revenue already earnt at the higher level. Reduce the number of points earnt for the same revenue, charge additional fees, levies, booking fees, adjustment fees over time.

Agree that status earn *could* be seen as a separate function of loyalty to the airline, given that QFF is purely about revenue and a separate business. To take the example to the extreme, say QFF was floated off and then looked to additionally partner with Aeroflot. Your QF status should have no bearing on your SV status...QFF is merely the "bank".

Regards,

BD
 

medhead

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Disagree.

Revenue is king with QFF.

Sell as many points as possible to as many "partners" as can be found. Charge your largest demographic for the privilege of being able to buy points from your largest partner (QF). Downgrade the value of those points over time to retain the revenue already earnt at the higher level. Reduce the number of points earnt for the same revenue, charge additional fees, levies, booking fees, adjustment fees over time.

Agree that status earn *could* be seen as a separate function of loyalty to the airline, given that QFF is purely about revenue and a separate business. To take the example to the extreme, say QFF was floated off and then looked to additionally partner with Aeroflot. Your QF status should have no bearing on your SV status...QFF is merely the "bank".

Regards,

BD
You disagree that QFF program is the part of the business that is responsible for customer loyalty? Perhaps it might be informative to learn about the various parts of the qantas group and their role.
 

BD1959

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You disagree that QFF program is the part of the business that is responsible for customer loyalty? Perhaps it might be informative to learn about the various parts of the qantas group and their role.
I disagree that QFF's sole role is loyalty and that loyalty can only be earned through QFF.

QFF is a major chunk of QF's balance sheet. That's not "loyalty" that's being measured: that's dollars and cents.

Likewise, loyalty can be earnt (and loss) by the service provided - which is the role of QF, not QFF.

Regards,

BD
 

medhead

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I disagree that QFF's sole role is loyalty and that loyalty can only be earned through QFF.

QFF is a major chunk of QF's balance sheet. That's not "loyalty" that's being measured: that's dollars and cents.

Likewise, loyalty can be earnt (and loss) by the service provided - which is the role of QF, not QFF.

Regards,

BD
Good thing I didn't use the word "sole" then.
 

MEL_Traveller

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I dunno - but I think the Qantas program suits those who in the main were going to fly qantas anyway and have large corporate spends or the company paying their airfares.

I don't think lower ties members are rewarded for their loyalty at all... we can fly and save points for years but get trumped for an international upgrade by a platinum deciding they rather might fancy a ski trip.

Try to find award seats? nah. trumped by high tier members who can just call up and get seats released. And don't have to pay any assistance fees.

Wonder why when you pay the same fare someone else in the cabin gets business class PJs, business class amenity kits, business class headphones, business class wines and food, and a shadow, and a crack at all the best seats?

I think there is actually very little incentive for low tier members to give any loyalty to qantas or to direct their spend their way. Well - there is incentive until you try and claim any of the supposed benefits of loyalty.
 

woodborer

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Discuss....
While reading this, and other forums, I have come to understand a few things. When someone is proposing some sort of change they do so for one of two reasons:
  • It favours them, while leaving others the same
  • It makes no change to them, but makes things harder for others.
And I think it is the case here, that your proposal is designed to make it easier for people with your flying patterns to gain status. Nothing about loyalty. But lets consider loyalty. It is a good term, but something of a misnomer. It is about the customer becoming loyal to a brand. That is, it is about getting you to build an emotional attachment to the brand. Qantas have been quite the experts at building that emotional attachment in the past, but as we see now, they are dispensing with that as they transform the business. The reality is that from the business side of Qantas, it is not about them being loyal to you. Never has been. Never will be. My advise, break the amotional attachment to Qantas, and look at things from a value perspective.
 
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I dunno - but I think the Qantas program suits those who in the main were going to fly qantas anyway and have large corporate spends or the company paying their airfares.

I don't think lower ties members are rewarded for their loyalty at all... we can fly and save points for years but get trumped for an international upgrade by a platinum deciding they rather might fancy a ski trip.

Try to find award seats? nah. trumped by high tier members who can just call up and get seats released. And don't have to pay any assistance fees.

Wonder why when you pay the same fare someone else in the cabin gets business class PJs, business class amenity kits, business class headphones, business class wines and food, and a shadow, and a crack at all the best seats?

I think there is actually very little incentive for low tier members to give any loyalty to qantas or to direct their spend their way. Well - there is incentive until you try and claim any of the supposed benefits of loyalty.
That is such absolute rubbish, lower tier members should not receive the benefits you've mentioned because they do not fly as much! Realistically, if you're completing only a couple economy trips a year you would be better off going for BFOD IMHO and not bothering at all with loyalty. There are large numbers of self funded WP, WP1s and CLs out there who aren't on 'large corporate spends' but instead are commercially valuable to Qantas. With all due respect, if you are a low tier member who puts maybe $5000 QFs way each year it is more commercially advantageous for them to upgrade that Platinum wanting to go on a 'fancy ski trip' then satisfying your yearning desire to upgrade after years of dutiful saving. Qantas is a business and therefore they should be prioritising those customers who generate more business for them.
 

MEL_Traveller

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That is such absolute rubbish, lower tier members should not receive the benefits you've mentioned because they do not fly as much! Realistically, if you're completing only a couple economy trips a year you would be better off going for BFOD IMHO and not bothering at all with loyalty. There are large numbers of self funded WP, WP1s and CLs out there who aren't on 'large corporate spends' but instead are commercially valuable to Qantas. With all due respect, if you are a low tier member who puts maybe $5000 QFs way each year it is more commercially advantageous for them to upgrade that Platinum wanting to go on a 'fancy ski trip' then satisfying your yearning desire to upgrade after years of dutiful saving. Qantas is a business and therefore they should be prioritising those customers who generate more business for them.
other airlines are businesses too - and low tier members don't get the raw prawn like we sometimes do on QF.

confirmed international upgrades for starters.

QF makes a bug deal about their 10 million members - the vast majority will be bronze and with the lack of transparency around advertised program benefits such as upgrades, there is sometimes little to reward years of loyalty.

There was a previous mention of 'jetstar idiots' on this site - those who fly jetstar a couple of times a year and expect an award seat. Not only is that possible but also actively promoted by QF. Yet the reality doesn't always match expectations - especially with huge Qantas imposed charges on award seats.

Book a qantas flight with US Airways - no fuel surcharge. Book a flight as a loyal QFF member and slugged you will be.
 
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other airlines are businesses too - and low tier members don't get the raw prawn like we sometimes do on QF.

confirmed international upgrades for starters.

QF makes a bug deal about their 10 million members - the vast majority will be bronze and with the lack of transparency around advertised program benefits such as upgrades, there is sometimes little to reward years of loyalty.

There was a previous mention of 'jetstar idiots' on this site - those who fly jetstar a couple of times a year and expect an award seat. Not only is that possible but also actively promoted by QF. Yet the reality doesn't always match expectations - especially with huge Qantas imposed charges on award seats.

Book a qantas flight with US Airways - no fuel surcharge. Book a flight as a loyal QFF member and slugged you will be.
I'll presume by your use of 'we' that you feel personally wronged by the QF loyalty system? The fact that you can even apply for international upgrades as a no-status member is in of itself generous! Qantas also offers a pathway to higher tier membership i.e purchasing the Qantas Club which is significantly different to that of many other airlines. Confirmable international upgrades devalue premium cabins, speaking frankly I want the integrity of the F cabin and domestic J cabins left in tact unlike on US carriers which means only high status members who spend a fair portion of their life flying and those who are willing to pay for the privilege.

Life isn't fair, especially something that is so mundane as a Frequent Flyer program shouldn't be. Would you suggest that low status members be able to reserve upgrades in advance or have time request trump status? As a high tier member I think it is perfectly acceptable for my last minute upgrade to clear ahead of a bronze that has been requested for months, just as priority boarding, lounge access are all things that I have earned. It is all about choice, if a bronze member feels as if they are hard done by after taking two Jetstar flights and shopping at Woolworth's and not getting a free flight then I doubt they are much of a loss.
 

BD1959

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if a bronze member feels as if they are hard done by after taking two Jetstar flights and shopping at Woolworth's and not getting a free flight then I doubt they are much of a loss.
A loss to whom?

Certainly not a loss to QF since they've hardly been flying - or therefore creating revenue - for QF.

They would almost certainly be a loss to QFF because they've probably had to spend more dollars at the supermarket in order to purchase those points as opposed to a WP flying in Y and gaining status bonuses etc.

The trouble is that QFF is portrayed as loyalty to QF, when in fact it *is* loyalty to the programme - albeit a very profitable programme which earns it owner huge amounts of revenue.

Maybe we need two types of elite: QF and QFF... ??

Regards,

BD
 

BD1959

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But QF FF pumps so much of our money into QF though.

1) Which is why I contend the programme is more about revenue to QF than loyalty to QF

2) This is only true as long as QF owns QFF

3) Similar to the alterations this year of the depreciation rates of aircraft, QF can vary the value of that revenue to it's bottom line at any time it likes whilst it owns QFF. Have they traditionally been overvaluing the revenue with an eye to selling the programme?

Regards,

BD
 
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A loss to whom?

Certainly not a loss to QF since they've hardly been flying - or therefore creating revenue - for QF.

They would almost certainly be a loss to QFF because they've probably had to spend more dollars at the supermarket in order to purchase those points as opposed to a WP flying in Y and gaining status bonuses etc.

The trouble is that QFF is portrayed as loyalty to QF, when in fact it *is* loyalty to the programme - albeit a very profitable programme which earns it owner huge amounts of revenue.

Maybe we need two types of elite: QF and QFF... ??

Regards,

BD
BD, I can see the logic of your argument but I think that ultimately the programs can work side by side, perhaps a SQ style model of offering a PPS club that is earns solely through premium travel.
 

mannej

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2 notes without weighing into the debate.

1) You talk about the raw prawn, yet VA members have to be gold or above to get upgrades internationally.

2) The integrity of the domestic J cabin was mentioned. Aren't you forgetting that you are able to obtain confirmed upgrades domestically, provided that the right fare bucket is available?
 

timster

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With all due respect, if you are a low tier member who puts maybe $5000 QFs way each year it is more commercially advantageous for them to upgrade that Platinum wanting to go on a 'fancy ski trip' then satisfying your yearning desire to upgrade after years of dutiful saving. Qantas is a business and therefore they should be prioritising those customers who generate more business for them.
True if it is one $5000/year low tier pax for every $50,000/year pax. But if it happens to be ten low tier pax for every on-a-whim-sky-bunny, then the revenue equation is neutral.

If a lot of those low tier pax come to their senses and finally realize how much QF "values" their loyalty, go BFOD, and QFi goes belly up, LTG ain't gonna be worth much to the frequent premium pax is it ?

So in some ways frequent premium pax have a big interest in keeping low tier pax happy.

Or of course you could campaign for a premium-only airline. Let me see ... how have they fared again ?
 
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