JQ tailstrike on takeoff

[serfty]

JQ tailstrike on takeoff ... at MEL


http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/air...melbourne-airport-runway-20160513-gounv3.html

 

[Foreigner]

Serious incident. A 6-month investigation during which time pilot is stood down. Do you think that would be the captain only? I assume he was in control, not the FO.

 

[jb747]

Serious incident. A 6-month investigation during which time pilot is stood down.

Hopefully not. On the scale of issues that can happen, a tail strike is relatively low. Stand down is normally only applied by the company, and should be resolved pretty quickly.

Do you think that would be the captain only?

As general rule, it's applied to the total coughpit crew.

I assume he was in control, not the FO.

Why would you think that? Again a generalisation, but most tail strikes (that I've heard of) are caused by the FO. There is very little opportunity for the Captain to stop them.

The dynamics of the strike aren't what most of you imagine, and in many cases it's most likely to happen AFTER the aircraft is airborne. At the landing end of the flight, it's more likely to happen on those greaser landings. Some aircraft are particularly easy to do it in too, with normal clearances in the order of 500mm being quite common.

 

[Duffa]

most tail strikes (that I've heard of) are caused by the FO

Nice one jb!!
I blame my juniors all the time, too!! :mrgreen:

 

[jb747]

It's a simple case of experience and exposure.

 

[Quickstatus]

JB747, What would be some of the causes of a tailstrike? I understand that TS can occur on takeoff and also landing.

?

 

[Foreigner]

As general rule, it's applied to the total coughpit crew.

Why would you think that? Again a generalisation, but most tail strikes (that I've heard of) are caused by the FO. There is very little opportunity for the Captain to stop them.

The article posted by sefty stated:

"The Jetstar pilot has been stood down during the investigation, which is standard practice."

In the singular, my assumption was the captain being stood down.

 

[Quickstatus]

The article posted by sefty stated:

"The Jetstar pilot has been stood down during the investigation, which is standard practice."

In the singular, my assumption was the captain being stood down.

My assumption would be that it was written by a journalist - you know, the ones who like to take the moral high ground but are naive about a lot of things....

 

[Foreigner]

My assumption would be that it was written by a journalist - you know, the ones who like to take the moral high ground but are naive about a lot of things....

Intelligent assumption.

 

[jb747]

JB747, What would be some of the causes of a tailstrike? I understand that TS can occur on takeoff and also landing.

I think that when most people start thinking about tail strikes, episodes like Emirates in Melbourne, or Singair in Auckland come to mind. In those cases, the take off weight used for the performance calculations was massively less than the actual weight, with the result that insufficient power was used. Rotation was started at well less than that really required for the weight. The lower power figure had caused them to use up all of the runway without adequate acceleration. As the runway was rapidly running out, getting airborne became the overwhelming priority, and the tails were dragged heavily for quite some distance.

Accident: Emirates A345 at Melbourne on Mar 20th 2009, tail strike and overrun on takeoff

ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-412 9V-SMT Auckland International Airport (AKL)

Most tail scrapes are much less dramatic, and involve little more than a light touch. Some aircraft are particularly prone to the issue (767-300) and even had a tail bumper.

In general they're associated with an overly rapid rotation, which results in the aircraft assuming too steep an attitude too soon. For instance on the 767 the normal climb attitude was in the region of 18-20 degrees, but a strike would occur at not much over 10º. Toss into the mix a combination of new FO, full rating power, and gusty crosswinds, all of which made the aircraft more of a handful, and you needed to be wary.

At the other end of the runway....holding off for the ultra smooth landing will give an increasing pitch attitude, and with the compressed gear an even earlier strike. Same goes for using aerodynamic braking (holding the nose up after touchdown).

Going around from low level also needs care.

 

[PLANT]

How many tail strikes you had?

 

[jb747]

How many tail strikes you had?

Touching wood. None.

 

[Melburnian1]

Does a 'light touch' cause any damage visible to the naked eye, or visible to experienced LAMEs?

Does a 'light touch' require inspection and certification before an aircraft can fly again, or is it insignificant?

I get the impression from the media (who refer to the JQ incident as the first - at the airport concerned - since 2009) that these incidents are rare. Is that understating the extent of tailstrikes, whether severe or 'light touches?'

 

[juddles]

Touching wood. None.

"If there is no video footage, it didn't happen"

 

[jb747]

"If there is no video footage, it didn't happen"

There would always be evidence.... And the next crew will always specifically look for it, just to ensure that any blame won't come their way.

 

[jb747]

Does a 'light touch' cause any damage visible to the naked eye, or visible to experienced LAMEs?

Does a 'light touch' require inspection and certification before an aircraft can fly again, or is it insignificant?

I get the impression from the media (who refer to the JQ incident as the first - at the airport concerned - since 2009) that these incidents are rare. Is that understating the extent of tailstrikes, whether severe or 'light touches?'

A tail strike is binary. It either happened, or it didn't. If it happened, then the aircraft is broken until a proper engineering assessment says otherwise.

Mostly, on those aircraft with rear bumpers, it does little to no damage, as the entire intent of the bumper is to stop the skin hitting the ground. So, the bumper itself may be replaced, but little is required beyond that.

Any skin damage is never insignificant...

It would be a bit like being punched in the head. If I did it, then you might consider it a light touch. But if done by Mike Tyson..... In either case though, it would still be a punch.

Here's one that's not going to be considered insignificant.....

 

[yohy?!]

jb, would you think then that's it likely to come down to the FO's actions/skill (who may have been a cadet as suggested on pprune) rather than JQ's recent worries with incorrect dispatching of aircraft (incorrect no. of pax etc).

 

[jb747]

jb, would you think then that's it likely to come down to the FO's actions/skill (who may have been a cadet as suggested on pprune) rather than JQ's recent worries with incorrect dispatching of aircraft (incorrect no. of pax etc).

Without being privy to any further info...I'd say that it's about a 99% chance of a handling error.

 

[Quickstatus]

Accident: Emirates A345 at Melbourne on Mar 20th 2009, tail strike and overrun on takeoff

ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-412 9V-SMT Auckland International Airport (AKL)

Sounds like the EK tailstrike was career ending for the two pilots?. These pilots resigned - maybe they were on the verge of being sacked and thought better to jump than be pushed. I suppose the threat of being sacked is a motivation to do everything by the book. Would this be a sackable offence on other airlines?

 

[UP4014]

While they happen and can happen anywhere, Melbourne seems to be a theme. With my old and untrained eyes, one of the run ways looks a bit undulating.