Is Frequent Flyer Miles ownership moving from employees, to employers?

[JohnK]

I hope this thread has also triggered new perspectives.

....

I thank the mods of this forum for allowing this sometimes heated thread to continue. I certainly hope that others have gained new information and perspectives from it.

This thread has only taught me one thing. If these companies you mention do exist then I do not want to work for them ever. Please include this in your data mining exercise.

If it came down to "jobs" or "miles" then I choose "miles" and stuff the job. If I give in on this today then what tomorrow? Give up my 4 weeks annual leave? How about my 10 days sick leave? How about my 10 days public holidays? All for the good of the job? All for the good of the company? No thanks. It is the other way around. If the company wants to keep me then it needs to look after me.

If the company wants me to travel then it will be on my terms not some accountants terms. It includes things like travel the night before if I am needed there in the morning and no travel on dodgy airlines like RyanAir, Jetstar, Tiger etc.

So Stuart! Have you learned anything about AFF and ownership of "miles"?

P.S I hardly post on Flyertalk but I will post this exact same over there....

 

[stuartbb]

This thread has only taught me one thing. If these companies you mention do exist then I do not want to work for them ever.

If it came down to "jobs" or "miles" then I choose "miles" and stuff the job. If I give in on this today then what tomorrow? Give up my 4 weeks annual leave? How about my 10 days sick leave? How about my 10 days public holidays? All for the good of the job? All for the good of the company? No thanks. It is the other way around. If the company wants to keep me then it needs to look after me.

If the company wants me to travel then it will be on my terms not some accountants terms. It includes things like travel the night before if I am needed there in the morning and no travel on dodgy airlines like RyanAir, Jetstar, Tiger etc.

So Stuart! Have you learned anything about AFF and ownership of "miles"?

Hi John,
Yes, this thread has taught me several things ...

1. What I summarised in my last post
2. No indication of companies in Australia owning the miles/points, even though there's no doubt about the USA and Europe. (Confirmed by several independent posts on FT)
3. In Australia, employees seem to have far more power than in other parts of the world, given the demands several of you guys seem to feel comfortable aiming at employers. If that's the case, lucky you, but I don't think it reflects Europe/USA.
4. That having watched 3 episodes of Fawlty Towers on DVD last night, I could imagine John Cleese making a great sketch out of your "If it came down to .." paragraph.

 

[nlagalle]

Specifically, in post #63 of the same named thread in FlyerTalk, Flying Lawyer wrote "If you have the choice between jobs or miles (either for you or for you colleague next door) what would your decision be?". I personally think that that's a very powerful and interesting question, and I respectfully ask, including those who have been very critical of me in this forum, to ask yourself that question once again. It's a fair question, and the answer is simply either "job" or "miles".

My answer is simple - I won't travel if they want the miles. I'll sit at my desk in Melbourne instead. It's a benefit to the company for me to travel, but I can do most of my work remotely. It'll hurt the company more in the long run...

I notice that you have failed to address two of my points - loss of time if travel is shifted to within work hours. What do you think will cost more in the long run?

And availability of flights to claim with points. the points are useless if they can't be claimed at the right times (which is often the case)

And lastly feel free to PM me your website. Just so I can make sure it's blocked on the company firewalls and spam filters

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Stuart it took you 20+ years to cotton on that you could get and FF points.....and so rather than this thread go for 20+ years looks like I will have to explain it to you.


An FF point used with knowledge, and with patience, has much greater value than when it has to be used in overly restrictive ways.

An individual can maximise it's benefit.

A company by it's nature and the T&C of FF programs cannot maximise the value anywhere near as much as an individual can. ie for starters companies will normally want it's staff flying at peak times. Or for example great value is obatained when used for long-haul international trips. Some companies are purely domestic and so could not realise that value.

A company can therefore incentivise it's workforce cheaply by letting them retain the FF points as they are worth more to the individual than to the company.

This is called a Win/Win scenario.

Employees are happy as they can gain what can be developed by them into an attractive benefit, and employers are happy that they can incentivise staff a lot more cheaply than say cash alone.

 

[stuartbb]

I won't travel if they want the miles. I'll sit at my desk in Melbourne instead.

I notice that you have failed to address two of my points - loss of time if travel is shifted to within work hours. What do you think will cost more in the long run? And availability of flights to claim with points. the points are useless if they can't be claimed at the right times (which is often the case)

And lastly feel free to PM me your website. Just so I can make sure it's blocked on the company firewalls and spam filters

OK, so if you truly have the power to not travel out of hours, then the employer will lose ... and yes, the point can't be used on all flights at all times .. not sure what more I can add.

No need for me to PM you my website ... several other here would be pleased to do so.

 

[nlagalle]

There is also another thing you forget. If i have no Frequent flyer number in the booking, no points are earnt. Whats to stop me removing it and not getting points that the company can use?

And at the end of the day, ony the indiviual can book the flights. Company can't access your FF information..

 

[stuartbb]

If i have no Frequent flyer number in the booking, no points are earnt. Whats to stop me removing it and not getting points that the company can use? And at the end of the day, ony the indiviual can book the flights. Company can't access your FF information..

In big companies, flight reservations are nearly always centralised .. ie an internal travel department, or outsourced to a corporate travel agent. They are the ones that make the bookings .. so the employees aren't wasting their time searching for flights, given travel agents have far more efficient tools to do so. Such large companies have well defined travel policies, and the "loopholes" you described above simply won't be an option. When I say "big companies", I mean companies with thousands of employees travelling throughout the year, each with perhaps 3 different FF accounts (different airlines). So, yes, it will be different in small companies, and yes, I'm sure someone here can say "my brother works in a big company and it doesn't work like that ..." .. but still, I think it's generally accurate for large European and US companies. Maybe not in Australia .. you know better than me.

 

[nlagalle]

In big companies, flight reservations are nearly always centralised .. ie an internal travel department, or outsourced to a corporate travel agent. They are the ones that make the bookings .. so the employees aren't wasting their time searching for flights, given travel agents have far more efficient tools to do so. Such large companies have well defined travel policies, and the "loopholes" you described above simply won't be an option. When I say "big companies", I mean companies with thousands of employees travelling throughout the year, each with perhaps 3 different FF accounts (different airlines). So, yes, it will be different in small companies, and yes, I'm sure someone here can say "my brother works in a big company and it doesn't work like that ..." .. but still, I think it's generally accurate for large European and US companies. Maybe not in Australia .. you know better than me.

Ok a few points here (which are relevant to my travel, but i suspect many others).

We choose our travel times and flights. We simply hand them to either the secretary and they contact the TA to make the booking. As we are the travellers we are given the choice of airline/time etc in many cases. some might book BFOD, but they'll still generally specify a time.

You say the loopholes wouldn't be an option? There is nothing stopping me after a flight is booked to simply go into the booking and remove a FF Number. easily done and no points are credited.. nothing the employer could do to prevent this. Also note you need a FF account to accrue points. they don't happen automatically.

you still haven't answered my first two points.

 

[nlagalle]

I did finally manage to find your site.. luckily for most people it isn't easy to find.

however I noticed these points (which I also saw on FT) but the statements were laughable!

The company recoups the premium that it has paid for the ticket, to cover the costs of reward points.

ok that is a furfy... the ticket price does not change if you are awarded points or not. no FF number no points. not a cheaper ticket.

Has a positive effect on controlling business travel costs.

I refer to my question above.. how can it control travel costs if you can't redeem points on selected routes?

Removes the incentive for individuals to take extra trips, more expensive or less direct travel arrangements, thereby counteracting any corporate travel policy

Not so applicable here, but sometimes the indirect way can be often cheaper than direct. And counteracting corporate travel policy??? I've yet to see one that specifies a particular way to get somewhere.. Here is another example. Sometimes a well planned RTW ticket is cheaper than flying direct from Oz to London. where is the better sense hey?

It reduces antagonism by not segregating "rewards" for people who travel as part of their job versus those who don't.

I've yet to see this one.. you think people get picky and think oooh he's got points and I don't??? The people I work with that don't travel basically say you can keep your travel!

 

[stuartbb]

There is nothing stopping me after a flight is booked to simply go into the booking and remove a FF Number. easily done and no points are credited.. nothing the employer could do to prevent this. Also note you need a FF account to accrue points. they don't happen automatically.


I did finally manage to find your site.. luckily for most people it isn't easy to find.

Regarding your first paragraph, big companies have corporate travel policies that would not allow you to do so, even though you might technically have the ability to do so.

Regarding your second paragraph, you have taken the whole thread backwards by tenaciously playing detective to find and post contents from my website here. If I would have done it, the mods and you guys would have reacted negatively immediately. But it's OK for you to do it? You are turning a generic discussion into a commercial one, and I'm not willing to participate in it.

 

[stuartbb]

Stuart it took you 20+ years to cotton on that you could get and FF points.....and so rather than this thread go for 20+ years looks like I will have to explain it to you.


An FF point used with knowledge, and with patience, has much greater value than when it has to be used in overly restrictive ways. An individual can maximise it's benefit.

A company by it's nature and the T&C of FF programs cannot maximise the value anywhere near as much as an individual can. ie for starters companies will normally want it's staff flying at peak times. Or for example great value is obatained when used for long-haul international trips. Some companies are purely domestic and so could not realise that value.

A company can therefore incentivise it's workforce cheaply by letting them retain the FF points as they are worth more to the individual than to the company. This is called a Win/Win scenario.

Employees are happy as they can gain what can be developed by them into an attractive benefit, and employers are happy that they can incentivise staff a lot more cheaply than say cash alone.

Not sure how you concluded I only just cottoned on to being able to get FF points, as it's not the case. Please, save us all by not quoting something from the past on this technicality .. if it was ambiguous, so be it.

Your posting is very well written. I agree with your underlying point .. that FF points are not always best used for every flight ... careful selection will add more value for an individual, etc ... but, if you have 10,000 employees flying, the situation changes .. .because one inefficient decision won't change the whole picture. Travel agents will have guidelines when to use them and when not to.

And yes, of course I understand how FF points can cause a lot of happiness ... that's not the question I posed on this thread. What I asked is given the recession, will points move from employee to employer ownership as a drive for some employers trying to save on travel? For a company with 10 employees, it's irrelevant ... for a company with 10,000 employees who travel, I think it's a valid question.

 

[medhead]

Not sure how you concluded I only just cottoned on to being able to get FF points, as it's not the case. Please, save us all by not quoting something from the past on this technicality .. if it was ambiguous, so be it.

What else can be concluded from you saying it took you 20+ years to realise the benefits of the FF? There was nothing ambiguous about your statement and it is not a technicality at all. I think a very valid point was made.

As fir the rest of this thread some of your comments make me think you still don't really understand FF. The fundamental thing is that the FF membership is held in the name of an individual employee. The employee is the one who ultimately determines how their membership is used not the employer.

Now you've got a lot of commercially valuable information from this thread, where do we send the invoice?

 

[stuartbb]

What else can be concluded from you saying it took you 20+ years to realise the benefits of the FF? There was nothing ambiguous about your statement and it is not a technicality at all. I think a very valid point was made.

As fir the rest of this thread some of your comments make me think you still don't really understand FF. The fundamental thing is that the FF membership is held in the name of an individual employee. The employee is the one who ultimately determines how their membership is used not the employer.

Now you've got a lot of commercially valuable information from this thread, where do we send the invoice?

What I posted about myself regarding 20+ years doesn't say what you wrote, at all. Anyway, it doesn't matter .. you misunderstood .. no big deal .. of course I've been getting FF miles/points.

I certainly don't claim to understand all about FF .. but what you wrote about who determines how the points/miles are used is true for the majority of companies, but fundamentally flawed regarding others.

As per your invoice request, now who's turning this into a commercial thread?

 

[Oneworldplus2]

For 20+ years, like many of you guys, I travelled a lot, got to know hotel staff on first name terms, knew all the wi-fi hot spots at major airports, could recite flight timetables by heart, missed flights, missed time with my family etc, etc. Just 3 weeks ago, I entered the world of FF miles.

What I posted about myself regarding 20+ years doesn't say what you wrote, at all. Anyway, it doesn't matter .. you misunderstood .. no big deal .. of course I've been getting FF miles/points.

Sorry if l made a derogatory comment on a previous post, l just assumed from the above comments that you had been flying for 20+ years and; you just started to earn FF points/miles **or** you just found out that FF points/miles can be earned on most/some flights. You were pretty vague in the last comment too, maybe you could elaborate on that?

I rapidly learned, and from various channels, and I don't think anyone here disagrees anymore, that the picture today is that a minority of companies, some huge .. some less so, today, own the miles in order to reduce travel expenses. Probably more owned them 10 years ago, but that number reduced as employees getting FF miles became the norm, during the good old dotcom days.

I have NOT heard of this happening in Australia. Globally?? You seem to only point to 2 countries, Germany and USA. Minority alright.
As l stated earlier in this thread, IMO, the most common way of not earning points (and a company to save money) would be to fly on a airline where the ticket doesn't earn points, eg, SQ, LH. TG...

The situation in Australia? Well, l don't think that it's going to change anytime soon. BIS earns the points, not the person who paid for the ticket.

Don't forget stuartbb, this is a frequent flyer website after all. Not a cost cutting site etc etc to save a few $$$

 

[medhead]

What I posted about myself regarding 20+ years doesn't say what you wrote, at all. Anyway, it doesn't matter .. you misunderstood .. no big deal .. of course I've been getting FF miles/points.

Didn't say you weren't earning points. What you wrote implies you weren't getting maximum value from your miles. Perhaps you should write what you mean if you want people to understand.

I certainly don't claim to understand all about FF .. but what you wrote about who determines how the points/miles are used is true for the majority of companies, but fundamentally flawed regarding others.

No, actually I wrote about how points are earned not how they are used.

As per your invoice request, now who's turning this into a commercial thread?

That is called a ridiculous proposition that reflects my opinion of the thread.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

What I asked is given the recession, will points move from employee to employer ownership as a drive for some employers trying to save on travel? For a company with 10 employees, it's irrelevant ... I think it's a valid question.

A valid question for this forum?

Well not really as :

1/ You keep going on and on about the recession. Perhaps you could spend a few minutes doing some basic research comparing the economy of Australia and the USA...and if you do you will appreciate that while the USA is in poor shape that Australia largely sailed through the GFC unscathed.

We are not battening down the hatches, we are growing our businesses.

I am an engineer and with the economy is such good shape engineers are in huge demand, and there is not enough to go around. Many positions remain unfilled....

. for a company with 10,000 employees who travel, I think it's a valid question.

2/ And in Australia just how many companies do you think there are that have 10,000 employees that fly frequently????

 

[nlagalle]

Regarding your first paragraph, big companies have corporate travel policies that would not allow you to do so, even though you might technically have the ability to do so.

That statement proves you don't understand the Australian market.. Frequent flyer accounts are personal accounts. I can choose to have one or not. should i not have one no points are earned are they? A company cannot set one up in my name. I have yet to see a "big company" force staff to have a frequent flyer account.

Regarding your second paragraph, you have taken the whole thread backwards by tenaciously playing detective to find and post contents from my website here. If I would have done it, the mods and you guys would have reacted negatively immediately. But it's OK for you to do it? You are turning a generic discussion into a commercial one, and I'm not willing to participate in it.

I haven't taken the thread backward - firstly I have not posted a link here - and won't. secondly I think over the top it proves you are using this site to do some market research and have answers to typical comments employees might have from their staff. If you were here legitimately you'd also be spoting in other threads too. I note that this is the only thread you are in.

I stand by what I said though - your justifications on your site are hardly compelling.

Having said that you still haven't responded to my questions I posed in post #123

 

[medhead]

Australia largely sailed through the GFC unscathed.

We are not battening down the hatches,

Indeed. I fact I'm not sure Australia even had a technical recession. Was it only one quarter of contraction? The whole premise of the question is flawed.

2/ And in Australia just how many companies do you think there are that have 10,000 employees that fly frequently????

I can think of maybe 2, whose employees occupy a place of great respect from anyone who might have used the lounge in an airport that recently didn't get a J lounge and who have distinctive, colourful plumage when travelling.

 

[ozmille]

whose employees occupy a place of great respect from anyone who might have used the lounge in an airport that recently didn't get a J lounge and who have distinctive, colourful plumage when travelling.

how very true

 

[NM]

[mod hat on]
The OP in this thread is obviously using this thread (and a similar one at Flyertalk) as a market research tool for this commercial business operation. That, by our definition, makes his posts in this thread commercial posts. We have allowed the thread to remain and the discussion to continue as it is a topic worthy of discussion and if posted for general discussion or interest (without the market research undertones) would not be in breach of the commercial posting forum rules.

If you don't want to contrinbute to the OP's market research, then do not post to this thread or topic.

As a reminder, please address the topic and not attack the poster and ensure posts are not intended for commerical gain. Breaches of the posting rules will result in infractions being issued, posts removed/edited or the thread being closed.
[/mod hat]