Is Frequent Flyer Miles ownership moving from employees, to employers?

[simongr]

Actually lets start on company credit cards! One of my personal bug bears - I hate them with a passion. In the UK none of the companies I worked for had company credit cards (some procurement cards existed).

I came here and they seem to be handed out like lollies - I wish I could get them out of my company but have already had some significant push back from senior managers on that front...

 

[Jasecoop]

Actually lets start on company credit cards! One of my personal bug bears - I hate them with a passion. In the UK none of the companies I worked for had company credit cards (some procurement cards existed).

I came here and they seem to be handed out like lollies - I wish I could get them out of my company but have already had some significant push back from senior managers on that front...

I think they have their place. I have 2 work cards, one for large items (flights and hotel) and one for taxis, dinners etc. If i had to pay myself and then be reimbursed then I would be out of pocket >$10k per month until I get paid back which leaves me with a liability. So long as they can be reconciled and not misused then there shouldnt be an issue. Also with some countries I am not willing to put my personal card at risk of theft

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Actually lets start on company credit cards! One of my personal bug bears - I hate them with a passion.

Why do you hate them?

 

[oz_mark]

Guys, even though it states in the forum definition that this is a place to ask hard questions, it seems some of you would rather try to verbally skin me alive than think together about a controversial subject.

I think the answer to your question is essentially that this is not generally happening in Australia.

 

[stuartbb]

The problem seems, to me, to be that you are going to take away the answers to your hard question and use them to try to make money. Perhaps if it was just a question to generate discussion the response might be different.

Plenty of people seem to be able to do it.

For 20+ years, like many of you guys, I travelled a lot, got to know hotel staff on first name terms, knew all the wi-fi hot spots at major airports, could recite flight timetables by heart, missed flights, missed time with my family etc, etc. Just 3 weeks ago, I entered the world of FF miles. I rapidly learned, and from various channels, and I don't think anyone here disagrees anymore, that the picture today is that a minority of companies, some huge .. some less so, today, own the miles in order to reduce travel expenses. Probably more owned them 10 years ago, but that number reduced as employees getting FF miles became the norm, during the good old dotcom days. Many of the people here wrote "nonsense" on that a few days ago, but others have come forward, in this and the FT forum, and confirmed it, independently. So many of us learned from that. Not just me .. several of you and members of FT. Seems a fair, healthy, harmless activity ... So that's the picture today .. the question I posed was to try to get a feel for how the current picture might change in the future. And I did it in a way to intentionally disconnect from my website, in order to not encourage companies to approach me, etc....

Regarding you comment on making money from children's books, aha, I see you don't know how to do it, either

I think the answer to your question is essentially that this is not generally happening in Australia.

Thank you .. a perspective on the original question asked. I'd welcome perspectives from others regarding how the situation might change in the future ...

 

[JohnK]

Stuart, the situation is not likely to change in the future.

This is a frequent flyer forum and as you may have already gathered we are in the habit of collecting miles as you call them.

Some people on here work for government departments that do not allow the accrual of miles but allow the accrual of SCs.

Many work for private companies with some on BFOD while others have an open cheque book.

If an employer is not offering miles as part of the travel then I believe this will be a strong deterrent for people to work there. In fact there are a number of people on this forum who will not travel in economy.

Collecting miles should be seen as a perk of the job not a way for an employer to save money.

I love a discussion as much as the next person but we are just going around in circles (you are saying this is what companies want and we are saying we are not interested) and without sounding too harsh I wish you would just go away and preach what you are trying to sell to someone else....

 

[nlagalle]

Thank you .. a perspective on the original question asked. I'd welcome perspectives from others regarding how the situation might change in the future ...

I can't see my company changing or trying to change that policy anytime soon.

In my case if they did I would not catch a plane before 9am or not get on a plane that would get me to Melbourne after 5pm. Either that or I wouldn't fly anymore. It'd cost the company more in lost time than the amount they'd "save" on points.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

For 20+ years, like many of you guys, I travelled a lot, got to know hotel staff on first name terms, knew all the wi-fi hot spots at major airports, could recite flight timetables by heart, missed flights, missed time with my family etc, etc. Just 3 weeks ago, I entered the world of FF miles. ...

Now that is amazing.

20+ years of missed opportunities. :shock: ...and your first thought it would seem on entering the FF world, was to try and deny others what you yourself had missed.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Ooooops sorry I was seduced off topic there.

Now back on "Great cost saving initiatives by top tier companies to save jobs".

My daughter recently started at IBM.

One thing she soon noticed that no tea or coffee is supplied for staff. On asking why she was told that it was taken away with the money used to save jobs.

Now she is only young, but she has also noticed that when anyone needs a tea/coffee that is down the lift, off to coffee shop, wait there and then return with the absence being a lot more than what a quick trip to the tea-room would have been.

So for every 10-20 cent drink saved it is probably a $3-9 productivity loss, if not more.

 

[Jasecoop]

To me it's not about benefits it's about additional compensation for being away from family. People used to think I was lucky to travel so much, now they are beginning to think otherwise - not something you do for fun. Simple, not enough incentive to travel, no travel or new job.

 

[nlagalle]

Ooooops sorry I was seduced off topic there.

Now back on "Creat cost saving initiataives by top tier companies to save jobs".

My daughter recently started at IBM.

One thing she soon noticed that no tea or coffee is supplied for staff. On asking why she was told that it was taken away with the money used to save jobs.

Now she is only young, but she has also noticed that when anyone needs a tea/coffee that is down the lift, off to coffee shop, wait there and then return with the absence being a lot more than what a quick trip to the tea-room would have been.

So for every 10-20 cent drink saved it is probably a $3-9 productivity loss, if not more.

False Economics. It's what happens when you let bean counters and academics run a place!

 

[lovetravellingoz]

False Economics. It's what happens when you let bean counters and academics run a place!

I must ask her now who gets to keep the Frequent Coffee points.

 

[simongr]

Why do you hate them?

They introduce a lack of ownership and responsibility. They give people an improved opportunity to abuse the system. They also create an internal admin function to support them.

Flights can and should be billed direct to the company. Companies should have expense reimbursement processes in place that reimburse people on a timely basis.

So for every 10-20 cent drink saved it is probably a $3-9 productivity loss, if not more.

False Economics. It's what happens when you let bean counters and academics run a place!

OK first - bean counters dont "run" the shop - bean counters are asked to find cost savings - what good companies do is ask their bean counters to work out how to make more money - so lets blame "management" rather than the bean counters - if sales people could sell the product at a profitable price then bean counters wouldnt need to find the profits from other places...

Also - do you really think a 15c coffee replaces a $3 coffee from a coffee shop?

 

[stuartbb]

Stuart, the situation is not likely to change in the future.
This is a frequent flyer forum and as you may have already gathered we are in the habit of collecting miles as you call them.

Some people on here work for government departments that do not allow the accrual of miles but allow the accrual of SCs.

Many work for private companies with some on BFOD while others have an open cheque book.

If an employer is not offering miles as part of the travel then I believe this will be a strong deterrent for people to work there. In fact there are a number of people on this forum who will not travel in economy.

Collecting miles should be seen as a perk of the job not a way for an employer to save money.

.... you are saying this is what companies want and we are saying we are not interested

John, Thanks .. that's a very useful perspective. I am serious jealous, that in your part of the world, you guys have the power to dictate business class travel. Really, good for you.

I'm really not saying "this is what companies want" ... I'm saying, "this is the picture today, fact. Does this forum think the recession will cause it to change?" .

I can't see my company changing or trying to change that policy anytime soon.

In my case if they did I would not catch a plane before 9am or not get on a plane that would get me to Melbourne after 5pm. Either that or I wouldn't fly anymore. It'd cost the company more in lost time than the amount they'd "save" on points.

As per my reply above, I'm genuinely jealous because in all my years of travelling, mainly working from London, the approach was "you need to be at customer "X" for 9am meeting, Monday" .... refusing would have generated mortgage and supermarket cashflow problems. I wish my parents actually had made the decision to move to Australia 30 years ago:!:

 

[nlagalle]

OK first - bean counters dont "run" the shop - bean counters are asked to find cost savings - what good companies do is ask their bean counters to work out how to make more money - so lets blame "management" rather than the bean counters - if sales people could sell the product at a profitable price then bean counters wouldnt need to find the profits from other places...

Also - do you really think a 15c coffee replaces a $3 coffee from a coffee shop?

Ok I should have added to that - the bean counters that end up in management (as i have seen it happen)

I think they are pointing to the lost work time

 

[JohnK]

As per my reply above, I'm genuinely jealous because in all my years of travelling, mainly working from London, the approach was "you need to be at customer "X" for 9am meeting, Monday" .... refusing would have generated mortgage and supermarket cashflow problems. I wish my parents actually had made the decision to move to Australia 30 years ago:!:

Why are you jealous?

To me the request to be at customer "X" for a 9:00am meeting is no issue at all.

If customer "X" is in another city

- Fly me to the destination the night before (economy is fine but I want FF points with airline of my choice not Ryanair)
- Pay for hotel accommodation
- Pay for my meals while I am away

I would gladly travel the night before in my own time and will also travel back from the customer in my own time.

If a company cannot accept a simple request like the one above then I do not travel or the company is not for me.

No point continuing debating whether we would still travel if the company took ownership of the miles. That part of the debate is over. And in a global financial crisis companies cut down on travel, not take ownership of FF miles....

 

[medhead]

Regarding you comment on making money from children's books, aha, I see you don't know how to do it, either

The questionn is not about what I know. It is simply an observation that plenty of people do make money writing children's books. Mem Fox for a start.

 

[nlagalle]

As per my reply above, I'm genuinely jealous because in all my years of travelling, mainly working from London, the approach was "you need to be at customer "X" for 9am meeting, Monday" .... refusing would have generated mortgage and supermarket cashflow problems. I wish my parents actually had made the decision to move to Australia 30 years ago:!:

oh I am happy to be there at 9am, but if I fly on my time, they can fly me out the night before. because odds on the morning flight could be late or cancelled or weather to name a few things.

I don't know too many people that work for companies that aren't that accoomodating.

As stated during a recession, they just cut back travel as opposed to using FF points to fly.

As I also mentioned, in theory using points to fly might sound like a good way to fly, but availability is limited too making travel harder.

 

[stuartbb]

I re-read all the posts in this thread, and also in the thread of the same name, that I started on Flyertalk. Firstly, my sincere thanks to all who contributed. Even though this was an emotional and controversial roller coaster, I hope this thread has also triggered new perspectives.

In summary, spanning this and the FT thread, we've seen several people confirm large and unspecified size companies in the USA and Germany own the miles in order to reduce travel costs, and that in Germany, the law appears to explicitly support this approach. We've had multiple input that confirmed that the number of such companies doing so has reduced over the last years, probably because of pressure to offer additional benefits in the then very competitive, good economic times.

We've also seen contributions in this thread that company owned (rights to use of) miles can have a positive side, if we're willing to think about the subject from a different angle.

Specifically, in post #63 of the same named thread in FlyerTalk, Flying Lawyer wrote "If you have the choice between jobs or miles (either for you or for you colleague next door) what would your decision be?". I personally think that that's a very powerful and interesting question, and I respectfully ask, including those who have been very critical of me in this forum, to ask yourself that question once again. It's a fair question, and the answer is simply either "job" or "miles".

For those that haven't read his full posting, I suggest you do, as he's a very credible, long standing member of FT, and he explained company ownership of miles in terms of saving jobs. You might not agree with it, but it's still interesting reading. Before anyone asks, no I don't know him personally.

In addition to the above, several people posted that their management looked at the possibility of company owned miles, and decided against it because of the huge task of managing this mass pool of miles, and because of the related controversial/emotional connotations. Yet, as we know from the postings of others, some companies are doing it, and statistically, and also based on my personal knowledge, (message #54 of the FT thread), it's more than the number of companies identified in this forum.

So, my point is, they figured out how to manage the sea of miles/points, and how to find ways to make the matter acceptable to their employees. .. probably different solutions for different companies. So, by definition, there are solutions, encompassing several different approaches. What the solutions are is a different discussion.

I thank the mods of this forum for allowing this sometimes heated thread to continue. I certainly hope that others have gained new information and perspectives from it.

My thanks to you all for your valuable time and input.

Best regards

Stuart

 

[Oneworldplus2]

- Fly me to the destination the night before (economy is fine but I want FF points with airline of my choice not Ryanair)
- Pay for hotel accommodation
- Pay for my meals while I am away

If a company cannot accept a simple request like the one above then I do not travel or the company is not for me.

I think that JohnK summed it up in this post.

stuartbb - 20 years and no points, you've been done mate.