Indonesia AirAsia 'technical issue', PER-DPS

[JohnK]

So people paid for the very cheapest of options on dodgy brother airlines and then are surprised when service is less than professional. Where's the face palm emoji when you really need it?

Just because I'm paying less for a service shouldn't mean that I expect the pilots and cabin crew to be anything less than professional going about their jobs.

Good to see that all is good in the end. The last thing you want to hear is "I told you so...."

 

[BAM1748]

Yes people buy plane tickets but not all airlines are created equal.

If you buy a Malasian car and it breaks down a lot with heavy depreciation you just say 'made in Malaysia, what do you expect?'.

Get on a Air Asia with a cheap ticket and people expect it to have the same standard safety and maintenance as an Australian airline.

Why? Reality doesn't work that way.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yes people buy plane tickets but not all airlines are created equal.

If you buy a Malasian car and it breaks down a lot with heavy depreciation you just say 'made in Malaysia, what do you expect?'.

Get on a Air Asia with a cheap ticket and people expect it to have the same standard safety and maintenance as an Australian airline.

Why? Reality doesn't work that way.

I dunno. Cars don't fall out of the sky! (And in your example if it broke down a lot I'd be relying on my consumer rights under Aussie law.) A cheaper car may be just as good safety wise, but the lower labour costs and lack of luxury finish results in the price difference.

Aviation is a bit different. Aircraft are made by only a handful of manufacturers, and with modern technology are becoming safer (things like TCAS). The airline industry is also heavily regulated with things such as maximum hours. There's a raft of international treaties and international bodies to oversee aviation including things like air traffic control. And if the home country doesn't have such a great regulatory history, the country the airline is flying to might (for example EU bans on certain aircraft and airlines).

Granted there's a pretty big hole in the above... pilot experience is not equal across all airlines. But one kind of assumes that airlines want their most experienced pilots on their most expensive long-haul equipment. I wouldn't assume an average pilot on an ERJ, even in the USA, is going to be as experienced as their equivalent on one of AA's 77Ws. But then again AF447 doesn't really confirm that argument.

And not everyone on the flight will be on a cheap ticket. Just like Qantas sells tickets to London for $1200, others are buying them at $2000. Same with Air Asia, Jetstar and other LCCs. And like the car example, the cheaper price may reflect the lack of luxury finish and lower labour costs rather than a compromise on safety.

 

[JohnK]

Get on a Air Asia with a cheap ticket and people expect it to have the same standard safety and maintenance as an Australian airline.

Why? Reality doesn't work that way.

I would hope that LCC's are not saving money with regards to safety and maintenance. They would be saving money on labour costs and making extra money from component pricing.

Also LCC does not mean cheap airfare. Have a look at some Friday nights BNE-SYD and Sunday nights SYD-BNE in February/March next year and you will see that QF and VA are not the most expensive. In fact I could ask JQ to price match some VA flights and even QF flights. Very scary.

 

[BAM1748]

Sorry guys I have to disagree.

You think all international airlines have the same safety, training, inspection and maintenance standards because of international treaties?

 

[JohnK]

You think all international airlines have the same safety, training, inspection and maintenance standards because of international treaties?

I would hope so.

Poor maintenance and safety means a plane can fall out of the sky. Poor maintenance on a car means the car simply breaks down.

And in saying that I'd expect a $20,000 Kia to be just as reiable as a $400,000 Ferrari. With a cheaper car I am paying for less features.

 

[cambriamarsh]

I think you'll find the Kia is more reliable. Try getting extended warranties on Euro cars!

 

[dajop]

I would hope so.

Poor maintenance and safety means a plane can fall out of the sky. Poor maintenance on a car means the car simply breaks down.

Even if you assume maintenance is the same, there is pilot training and ability to take into account. If you look at many of the major incidents over the last 10 years, the way pilots have handled the aircraft seems to have been a big factor in the end result. I am not necessarily even talking about the actual training pilots receive, and also their problem solving ability to deal with abnormal situations (this point is my biggest fear flying in SE Asia, as education system from age 5 is more focussed on rule based rote learning of knowledge than problem solving).

Nb: Poor maintenance of a car can also kill you and others ... brakes or steering fail when travelling at 100kmh? Can lead to very unappealing outcomes.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Sorry guys I have to disagree.

You think all international airlines have the same safety, training, inspection and maintenance standards because of international treaties?

international frameworks are part of the overall safety equation. Country specific rules and regulations are another part. As is pilot experience, maintenance etc etc. Aviation is highly regulated. But that doesn't mean it's fail safe.

You expect the same level of oversight for all airlines, irrespective of wether they are low cost or legacy.

 

[dajop]

You expect the same level of oversight for all airlines, irrespective of wether they are low cost or legacy.

The trouble is that oversight is just one part of the equation. Culture, and a strong safety culture is critical to success. Having worked in workplace safety for an MNC (not at related to aviation, but there are parallels), we had the same level of oversight of very similar sites in different countries, and at different sites within the same country. Same policies, same audits, same initiatives, but cultural factors both local (ie site, depending on site management) and national led to different outcomes at different sites. Oversight provides a base, the rest is up to management to create the right culture. It worries me that some airlines response to pilot errors is to immediately fire the pilot. A great way to discourage reporting of issues that may need management attention. Also others who put pressure on pilots to put schedule ahead of safety. And the list goes on.

And lets not forget there is oversight and then there is "oversight" where the wheels of regulation are "well oiled" to make it all run smoother, which is probably one of the reasons why EU slapped a default ban on all Indonesian carriers, such that individual carriers have to meet additional requirements to be exempted from that list.

 

[BAM1748]

international frameworks are part of the overall safety equation. Country specific rules and regulations are another part. As is pilot experience, maintenance etc etc. Aviation is highly regulated. But that doesn't mean it's fail safe.

You expect the same level of oversight for all airlines, irrespective of wether they are low cost or legacy.

Yes you would expect it, but no it doesn't happen how people think.

You'd also expect the same level of oversight in Australia between rail workshops who do safety critical work. As an inspector of workshops who do safety critical work under the same Act and Regulations I can say even workshops owned by the same company have big differences and I would not send my own work to some. But they still pass when the Govt inspector turns up.

The world isn't black and white, reality is grey and many shades of it.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The proposition was that if you buy low cost then you should expect low cost in terms of safety. I agree the world is not black and white, but I have outlined how aviation safety is in a different category to car manufacturing.

 

[jb747]

The proposition was that if you buy low cost then you should expect low cost in terms of safety. I agree the world is not black and white, but I have outlined how aviation safety is in a different category to car manufacturing.

Well, no matter what you might expect, the quality of the pilots varies dramatically. Sometimes cultural reasons, but in this context, mostly ones of cost. Some are scary just to be in the same airspace with.....

I will admit though, that's it's not just LCCs, and then not all of them. Some do stand out though.

 

[Flying Fox]

I will admit though, that's it's not just LCCs, and then not all of them. Some do stand out though.

In your opinion, which airlines would you avoid (I'm assuming that your no-fly list is shorter than the fly list)?

 

[jb747]

In your opinion, which airlines would you avoid (I'm assuming that your no-fly list is shorter than the fly list)?

I'm sure my "no fly" list includes airlines that are highly spoken of here. But, it's probably not appropriate for me to put up any form of list.

I did once have a theory that any airline that used pictures of pretty young things in their advertising was worth avoiding....

 

[JohnK]

The world isn't black and white, reality is grey and many shades of it.

Only because we've allowed this to happen.

Wrongly the focus is on earning money not the performance, the quality of service or customer support of the corporation. Too many people are overpaid and underperforming and introducing stupid ideas to save costs while at the same time inflating their own salaries.

We sit back and say "Meh, that doesn't affect me!". Oh but it does in more ways than you can possibly think. It is not acceptable to wait for a call to be answered on any customer service call. To wait over 2 hours is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Scr77]

I did once have a theory that any airline that used pictures of pretty young things in their advertising was worth avoiding....

I like this. Similar to my theory of not eating at restaurants that have pictures of their food out the front.