If you're paying, why would you opt for VA over NZ in J going to LAX?

[theevilmuppet]

Hi all,

Being in Melbourne, I admit that I may be positioned somewhat unusually in terms of this consideration. My concern is more focused on personal travel than business but I suspect there are points to be made from either (or other) class of traveller.

On VA:

From Melbourne, one needs to fly from MEL to either SYD or BNE on a 737 at 0700 or similar in a 2-2 configuration for 1 or 2 hours. Afterwards, one then arrives at LAX at between 0500 and 0700 in a 2-3-2 business class.

On NZ:

From Melbourne, one needs to fly from MEL to AKL on a 777 at 1145 in a 1-2-1 configuration for 3 hours, barely have time to enjoy a beer and Facebook check in the Koru longue before getting on another 777 to land at LAX at about 1000 when many other facilities and amenities are generally available.

Thus far, both options are 2 stop, both require walking through a decently-sized airport and both are subject to at least two delays. The NZ option has some practical potential benefits however this is one benefit that is not to be disregarded.

In terms of price, VA costs very close to $4,000 for each leg in J. In contrast NZ can provide J fares for under $3,000 per leg on wide-body jets with preferable departure and arrival times and (at least at present) a vastly superior product.

The statements made by Mr Borghetti with regard to the upgrades that are clearly inbound on the VA widebody jets for J point to a price rise, making VA even less competitive with the NZ Business Premier product.

With all that said, if not using cash for J or a combination of cash for Y or W plus points for the upgrade, why would anyone choose VA over NZ when traveling from MEL to LAX?

The only thing I can think of is either Sector Count or the status boost on Velocity Points earn. The NZ option provides superior SC earn (and we all know Status Credits are far more valuable than Velocity Points).

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

I have transitted SYDd to SYDi, comparing with AKL int to int, not taking into consideration the short time that does not allow a visit to the AKL Koru, AKL airport wins hands up! Smallish int terminal, easy to navigate, won't get lost!
Tranferring from SYDd to SYDi is a pain in the bum. At least AKL does not have body scanners. And you might just have to go through transit security, without anything else, ie, no bus to sit and wait for them to fill up (the bus in SYDd to SYDi that VA uses, is a public bus, also picks up outside the VA (public terminal-compared to the QF bus that only serves QF customers).
Well, you might have to pay a bit more, but if your travel is flexible, you could stop over in AKL for a day, and get the next days flight to LAX.
If SYDd and SYDi were in the same terminal, or close by, like MELd to MELi, I would say, go on through SYD. But with them being separate, nak ah.
Also, VAi does not have OLCI, so you have to go to the Premium Counter and show passport to check in in MELd, fly to SYDd, and then get the bus to SYDi, h*ll nope.
Believe you me, do the whole trip MELi from the start to AKL, transit, then to LAX. Stop over in AKL in you want to use the Koru, I paid Nzd$55 for it, no views to the outside, so so food wise, was there for breakfast, can't complain, but its no F class.
Do Koru in MELi if you want to.

 

[AviationNZ]

Can't answer that as you hit the nail on the head. NZ has a much superior hard and soft product, better transit experience in AKL and a brand new AKL lounge coming in 3 months.

There's also the option of San Fran, Vancouver and Houston.

 

[serfty]

After 5 years of NZ Gold Elite Airpoints status I would generally choose VA via BNE/SYD any time over NZ via AKL.

3 or so years ago AirNZ had the best transpacific soft product out there (IMHO) with the introduction of their 77W service - VA is much better these days.

Air NZ has cut to the bone ... just like Qantas don't expect any reasonable catering out of West coast North America.

As for price that various a lot and VA is often cheaper than NZ.

FWIW, I am booked to fly my last NZ transpacific flights for the foreseeable future next Month.

Have a look at this Recent FT thread for more enlightenment: ANZ Business Premier - what happened? - FlyerTalk Forums

...
For the past 5 yrs I always fly ANZ and Business Class. I've always been really impressed and continued to fly with them even though there were easier ways/cheaper ways to get to my destination.

This year was a real disappointment. Food was inedible (plus both ways I didn't get my food choice - on the way back the FA told me that I could have the one they are serving in PE since "it's the same thing really...".)

The seats were full of crud and who know what else.

The FA's just looked bored and were quite dismissive.

I aksed one of the other passengers what was going on and she told me they were "cutting costs" and it showed in the service and food. (I had to check several times to make sure I was not on Virgin Atlantic.

)

It's a shame really. Great customer service (and good food) is what set them apart.

Anyone else noticed? ..

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Aha, so new AKL Koru lounge.
Ta for that info.

 

[theevilmuppet]

As for price that various a lot and VA is often cheaper than NZ.

This is what I find interesting. I have never seen a VA J seat to LAX from BNE, SYD or MEL available for less than $3,700 yet I can easily get a J seat from MEL to LAX (via AKL) on NZ right now for under $2,800.

 

[serfty]

This is what I find interesting. I have never seen a VA J seat to LAX from BNE, SYD or MEL available for less than $3,700 yet I can easily get a J seat from MEL to LAX (via AKL) on NZ right now for under $2,800.

That is a good (but rare) sale - I can see on NZ for $5200 return with the '$600 off' sale (October test dates) - not bad.

At those prices I would consider it ... even if the soft product is not as nice.

 

[theevilmuppet]

That is a good (but rare) sale - I can see on NZ for $5200 return with the '$600 off' sale (October test dates) - not bad.

At those prices I would consider it ... even if the soft product is not as nice.

May I ask what sort of prices you've seen on VA for J to LAX that you'd consider exceptional?

 

[serfty]

May I ask what sort of prices you've seen on VA for J to LAX that you'd consider exceptional?

Exceptional? Under what I can do it for by buying PE on VA and upgrading with Velocity points.

As for revenue, same level as that $5200 or a couple of 100$ more.

Those NZ prices are very good for BP - it's just a shame the product has deteriorated so.

 

[theevilmuppet]

Exceptional? Under what I can do it for by buying PE on VA and upgrading with Velocity points.

Given PE can be had on VA for just over $2,000 round-trip on some dates the upgrade cost of 90,000 Velocity points is a pretty good deal (vs the best I can see of over $7,400 for an actual J seat).

It's an excellent balance between comfort and SC/points earn per dollar.

 

[flying_double]

May I ask what sort of prices you've seen on VA for J to LAX that you'd consider exceptional?

VA was recently on sale for approximately $5,500 return, around the time that QF was selling companion fares for $5,000 return. Those fares were pretty good!

 

[theevilmuppet]

VA was recently on sale for approximately $5,500 return, around the time that QF was selling companion fares for $5,000 return. Those fares were pretty good!

The slight premium over NZ's current specials could be justified in terms of points earn (given the status bonus), however the timing of departure and arrival is still quite a negative compared to the NZ option. Also, the 2-3-2 configuration in J is no match for the 1-2-1 configuration on NZ unless you're traveling with someone.

The fact that NZ's product is on a 777 for both legs is also nice. it's slightly jarring going from a 777 to a 737 on the way back I would imagine!

 

[AviationNZ]

The slight premium over NZ's current specials could be justified in terms of points earn (given the status bonus), however the timing of departure and arrival is still quite a negative compared to the NZ option. Also, the 2-3-2 configuration in J is no match for the 1-2-1 configuration on NZ unless you're traveling with someone.

The fact that NZ's product is on a 777 for both legs is also nice. it's slightly jarring going from a 777 to a 737 on the way back I would imagine!

I tend to agree with you, and whilst everyone has their own opinions/experiences, I personally have had great flights to the U.S. with NZ and believe the product/service is superior.

 

[serfty]

I tend to agree with you, and whilst everyone has their own opinions/experiences, I personally have had great flights to the U.S. with NZ and believe the product/service is superior.

So have I, but that was 2011 and the years beforehand - my most recent travels have been way down on those -I posted the following on FlyerTalk in February 2011: (777-300 ER mini-reviews - Page 5 - FlyerTalk Forums)

... I will note the "minor" enhancements to the Business product have turned it from a marginally average offering to a leader. ...

In total I have flown 12 times in Business between AKL and North America on AirNZ and until the downgrades in soft product over recent years I happily put NZ up there as the best overall SWP/NA business product. The rot set in from 2013 ...

I point again to the FT link I mentioned above: ANZ Business Premier - what happened? - FlyerTalk Forums

 

[theevilmuppet]

In total I have flown 12 times in Business between AKL and North America on AirNZ and until the downgrades in soft product over recent years I happily put NZ up there as the best overall SWP/NA business product. The rot set in from 2013 ...

I personally travelled on NZ in J in December last year and I found it fantastic in every way. I sampled J with VA, VX and DL domestic either side and found NZ vastly superior. I admit that having to ask a belligerent mother to stop her son from kicking the back of my seat did not help my impressions of Delta's BusinessElite service from JFK to LAX.

May I ask a direct question? Given your understanding of the current state of the NZ J product (and me considering it excellent), what does the VA product offer at present that would have me potentially pay a premium, put up with less enjoyable transit options and see myself putting up with a 2-3-2 arrangement as a sole traveller?

 

[serfty]

You must have been lucky ...

VA has generally bigger and better food portions while NZ seems to have started to go the qantas way with "Supper" for West bound flights. (Small portions, one starter)

This is importent to me when heading as these flights leave at such a time as it to be normal evening meal time at the destination by the time they get around to serving food.

My aim is to have a full meal, watch a movie or two before going to sleep with at least 9 hours remaining in the flight.

It could be I am really comparing the NZ product at its peak rather than the shadow of that which I have found it in recent years.

Any way it is subjective and currently VA suits my purposes better.

 

[notzac]

Re: You must have been lucky ...

I flew NZ J to SFO late last year. Massive disappointment. Planes were filthy, service was most charitably described as "below par", the food was inedible and the champagne .. the less said about it, the better. When I wrote in to NZ, I got a generic "sorry we didn't meet your expectations" email in reply.

While VA J has (for the moment) inferior seats, the service and F&B are so far ahead of NZ it's not funny. I just recently spent ~$1k more to fly VA instead of NZ.

 

[eastwest101]

Re: You must have been lucky ...

I think the OP has two valid points. Firstly - the caveat being "if it was your own money" and secondly when you consider that by being in MEL, they are choosing between a VA dom flight to either SYD or BNE and then the VAi B773 to the US. Either way - some could construe the transfer at BNEd->BNEi or SYDd->SYDi as being a bit "messy" compared to the transit in AKL on NZ. Don't forget that UA and QF also service this MEL-LAX market. Hard and soft products debate notwithstanding, plus the option of other ports that are not LAX that you get by flying NZ - I just had a look at some random dates in early July for J class fares MEL-LAX and they are all within a couple of hundred $$ of each other, unlike Y class fares where it is cut throat, there does not seem to be as much apatite for price competition on transpacific J class fares. (Prices below MEL-LAX typical return in AUD$)

CZ $6K but stupid transit times so dismissed for the moment
NZ $6.6K for B777 product 1 stop
UA $7.8K for B789 nonstop
VA $7.8K for 1 stop via SYD or BNE
QF $8K for A380 nonstop (probably the best product but at that price you would be expecting pretty amazing product and service)

Horses for courses I guess but from what I have read here on AFF - its all about the different motivations. For some it comes down to price (and fair enough - any way you look at it its a fair whack of $$ to be spent), for some - its all about avoiding LAX, and for others its all about transit airports vs direct service pros and cons. For some - the food may be important, and for others, its all about the seat (ability to sleep).