How can AFF contribute towards relaxation of bilateral agreements between Australia and other countries?

[LionKing]

I kinda know that this topic may cross the fringe of the rules of this discussion board, however I must point out that this may affect how we are to travel in the future.

I was wondering if AFF (us) as a collectual can do something to lobby, advocate and push for better billateral deals of air traffic rights in and out of Australia?

There are two countries particular of my mind: Indonesia and Hong Kong.

Indonesia: Everyone loves to go to Bali, however the lack of seats due to bilateral agreements is confining the ability for Qantas, Virgin and Garuda to expand, and is also affecting the ability for Indonesians to connect into Jakarta in Java.

I honestly hope the bilateral agreement can be changed in a way that open skies can happen with unlimited traffic rights, and potentially with conditions, such as minimum 50% of seats flying between Indonesia and Australia needs to be Business/First Class and Premium Economy, to avoid overtourism in Bali, or exclude Bali in the bilateral to allow more flights in/out of Jarkarta and open new cities such as Surabaya.

As our PM says there's no more important relationship than with Indonesia, yet there are not sufficient flights to/from Indonesia, which I think it is holding a back foot into Australia's relationship with them.

Hong Kong: The neighbouring region of Guangdong has become one of the most visited place for Australians, in particular of those tens of millions of Chinese ethincity.

Yet only allowing 83/91 flights per week into Australia is far from enough and is driving ticket prices sky rocket. Hong Kong is no difference to Singapore in terms of connectivity, and it is completely the fault of Australian Airlines who are unable to provide extra capacity into Hong Kong and now everyone is suffering from $6000 tickets return to HKG. Making it open skies would allow Hong Kong carriers to fly more often into Australian main cities, including WSI, which would drive down ticket prices and would be welcome to the main voter base of the current Australian Governing political party.

There could be many more examples, such as UAE, Taiwan etc., and I would like to know how us, as AFF, could do something to push the government to introduce more flights so that we can enjoy lower prices and more frequency overseas, so we don't need to fork out tens of thousands just to see our families?

 

[Forg]

The Hong Kong thing is interesting … what are the limitations there?
Never having even thought about it, the fact Cathay has 5 daily flights just to Sydney (well they did on the July days I was looking at) made me just assume every airline is running bulk flights through there … but for the above comment to be made, this must be an inaccurate assumption … is the CCP only allowing the airline they inherited (“it comes with the territory”) that number of flights?

What could the AFF community do?
I doubt much that’s real. You’d likely need to talk with your local federal member and ask what they could push for, along with a solid argument for whether it was going to be worth their effort - like, what does their constituency actually get out of it & about which anyone would care enough for it to sway a vote.
I guess if you work for an airline that might provide a different avenue; but chatting with senior management (ie. for them to whine to government) about stuff like this is probably harder to achieve that chatting to your local political representative.

 

[Mwenenzi]

I kinda know that this topic may cross the fringe of the rules of this discussion board, however I must point out that this may affect how we are to travel in the future.

I was wondering if AFF (us) as a collectual can do something to lobby, advocate and push for better billateral deals of air traffic rights in and out of Australia?

There are two countries particular of my mind: Indonesia and Hong Kong.
<snip>

Hong Kong is not a country. Part of a China. The end

China as a whole is not that profitable for western airlines. Based on big volumes at low margins.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I kinda know that this topic may cross the fringe of the rules of this discussion board, however I must point out that this may affect how we are to travel in the future.

I was wondering if AFF (us) as a collectual can do something to lobby, advocate and push for better billateral deals of air traffic rights in and out of Australia?

There are two countries particular of my mind: Indonesia and Hong Kong.

Indonesia: Everyone loves to go to Bali, however the lack of seats due to bilateral agreements is confining the ability for Qantas, Virgin and Garuda to expand, and is also affecting the ability for Indonesians to connect into Jakarta in Java.

I honestly hope the bilateral agreement can be changed in a way that open skies can happen with unlimited traffic rights, and potentially with conditions, such as minimum 50% of seats flying between Indonesia and Australia needs to be Business/First Class and Premium Economy, to avoid overtourism in Bali, or exclude Bali in the bilateral to allow more flights in/out of Jarkarta and open new cities such as Surabaya.

As our PM says there's no more important relationship than with Indonesia, yet there are not sufficient flights to/from Indonesia, which I think it is holding a back foot into Australia's relationship with them.

Hong Kong: The neighbouring region of Guangdong has become one of the most visited place for Australians, in particular of those tens of millions of Chinese ethincity.

Yet only allowing 83/91 flights per week into Australia is far from enough and is driving ticket prices sky rocket. Hong Kong is no difference to Singapore in terms of connectivity, and it is completely the fault of Australian Airlines who are unable to provide extra capacity into Hong Kong and now everyone is suffering from $6000 tickets return to HKG. Making it open skies would allow Hong Kong carriers to fly more often into Australian main cities, including WSI, which would drive down ticket prices and would be welcome to the main voter base of the current Australian Governing political party.

There could be many more examples, such as UAE, Taiwan etc., and I would like to know how us, as AFF, could do something to push the government to introduce more flights so that we can enjoy lower prices and more frequency overseas, so we don't need to fork out tens of thousands just to see our families?

There is still plenty of capacity on the AU-Indonesia market. It’s just that that capacity belongs to Indonesian carriers who have chosen not to take advantage of it.

That potentially suits Aussie carriers to some degree, limiting available seats and driving up prices/profits for them.

If there was sufficient profit for indonesian carriers, they’d be flying it.

Re HKG… I suspect there’s plenty of capacity there as well! Just QF/JQ/VA can see greater profits elsewhere.

 

[SYD]

Re HKG… I suspect there’s plenty of capacity there as well! Just QF/JQ/VA can see greater profits elsewhere.

QF probably don’t have the spare aircraft?

It used to be 747s and occasionally A380 ex SYD but currently constrained to A330s. Slightly surprising they don’t swing a 787 that way on rotation but they all seem to be doing back to back ULH/LH routes.

 

[trisreed]

I honestly hope the bilateral agreement can be changed in a way that open skies can happen with unlimited traffic rights, and potentially with conditions, such as minimum 50% of seats flying between Indonesia and Australia needs to be Business/First Class and Premium Economy, to avoid overtourism in Bali, or exclude Bali in the bilateral to allow more flights in/out of Jarkarta and open new cities such as Surabaya.

Would be nice to have any business seats out of Perth to Bali... although I think Batik may have something? The Australian side has the options of Jetstar or Jetstar - apparently they have Business coming to the A321s?

 

[markis10]

There could be many more examples, such as UAE, Taiwan etc., and I would like to know how us, as AFF, could do something to push the government to introduce more flights so that we can enjoy lower prices and more frequency overseas, so we don't need to fork out tens o

No change required, plenty of spare capacity of the country’s/SARs mentioned if they want it. In the case of HKG there is plenty of alternatives in the pearl river delta anyway, Shenzhen is under utilised while CAN has many options. Let’s not forget not all airports are capped, so bring on 10x flights to CBR lol

 

[Melburnian1]

I honestly hope the bilateral agreement can be changed in a way that open skies can happen with unlimited traffic rights, and potentially with conditions, such as minimum 50% of seats flying between Indonesia and Australia needs to be Business/First Class and Premium Economy, to avoid overtourism in Bali, or exclude Bali in the bilateral to allow more flights in/out of Jarkarta and open new cities such as Surabaya....

Given it's fairly rare for aircraft to be always going to the same destination but omitting every other one (i.e. only flying Oz-Bali and return), if an airline perceived it could make more moolah with a minimum half being business/first/premium economy, it would have already done this.

SQ is one exception: it'd done this for Singapore to east coast USA.

 

[Beer_budget]

No change required, plenty of spare capacity of the country’s/SARs mentioned if they want it. In the case of HKG there is plenty of alternatives in the pearl river delta anyway, Shenzhen is under utilised while CAN has many options. Let’s not forget not all airports are capped, so bring on 10x flights to CBR lol

I'd take 10x international flights from CBR, please and thank you- direct for preference, although the convenience of the SQ CBR-SIN-SYD triangle flight back in 2019 more than made up for the tech stop on the way home.

Sort of hoping the rise of longer range narrow bodies gets us more direct flights to SEA hubs, since it'll be more feasible to achieve a viable % capacity on those than the widebodies.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

QF probably don’t have the spare aircraft?

It used to be 747s and occasionally A380 ex SYD but currently constrained to A330s. Slightly surprising they don’t swing a 787 that way on rotation but they all seem to be doing back to back ULH/LH routes.

I guess they figured JNB was much more lucrative for the a380! And it seems to get very good loads in most classes.

They did t even sell F on the a380 to HKG

 

[AuSammy]

tens of millions of Chinese ethincity.

According to wikipedia there are less than 1.6 people Chinese ethnicity in AU. ~5.5% whereas Caucasians are around the 60% mark - hence all the flights to UK/EU

The Chinese government is the main manipulator of travel to AU by it’s citizens for political purposes. If the Chinese are not coming here then only sufficient capacity is going to be run to cover AU travellers going out and return profitably.

Chinese carriers are offering Y seats to China so cheap in package tours there is no way QF could compete ($999 7 days, 5*hotels, touring and return fares)

Everyone loves to go to Bali,

No, not everyone likes to go to Bali, a vast exaggeration, however it is true lots do. So many in fact the Balinese local government is attempting to restrict tourism and really doesn’t want any more.

If Indo carriers were more interested in running flights from Indo destinations then QF/JQ/VA could get more rights, but there seems to be a lack of interest in doing so.