Goodbye Qantas

[Austman]

When is fly forward activated?

When Qantas deems active it for operational reasons. Sometimes weather, sometimes cancellations, sometimes long flight delays, sometimes equipment changes, sometimes overbooking. Maybe other reasons. Sometimes you'll not know.

 

[basso]

In your case I think that common sense should have been in play, but you know what they say about common sense...

Common sense is in the eye of the beholder? One mans common sense is another mans suicidal madness?

 

[donovan301]

When Qantas deems active it for operational reasons. Sometimes weather, sometimes cancellations, sometimes long flight delays, sometimes equipment changes, sometimes overbooking. Maybe other reasons. Sometimes you'll not know.

You are indeed correct....

One small point, I believe internally it is termed "Flow Forward"

Jus' Sayin ;-)

 

[basso]

The point is being missed. Good customer service means being flexible with strict application of your rules, especially where you don't suffer commercially..

Like always it is the inconsistency and how it is applied.

The problem with demanding consistency, is that you are demanding the letter of the rules be enforced, without exception.

 

[CaptJCool]

Since this is my 150th post, I thought I'd make it an entertaining g one !


So clearly an expectation of flexible is nothing more than a waiver of the change fee, and where the fare is cancelled then the $88 applies anyway. Given that situation, makes me wonder why they call it a "flexible" fare?
And I think the OP was annoyed that $110 on say his $375 one way ticket (see below) was a 30% price hike so I can understand his concern about his relative bargaining positioning....
So....
What I didn't realise is that a return domestic economy ticket is actually split and treated as two separate single one-way domestic economy fares. (Learn something new every day)


BBC - Travel - How airline pricing works


Airlines reveal ticket pricing strategies
Airlines reveal ticket pricing strategies


Now Syd - Can. Flying there today tues 8th and returning Thurs 10th max fare is $945 return. - ah Parliament is sitting this week and rises on Thurs.... A colleague showed me full flex fares can to Adel is $799 one way to Melb or Bris $675. Syd at $536 remarkably low...


Amadeus business overview. briefly mentioned flow Forward


American Airlines delivering on vision for a Next Generation Airport. As does this


These two lay out the fare rules.
http://www.qantas.com/agents/dyn/qf/policies/DomesticRetailClueCardJan15.pdf


http://www.qantas.com/agents/dyn/qf/policies/150717DomesticReissuePolicy.pdf
Pages 17-20....
Example 7 and example 8 are most interesting because where your base fare drops you're in all likelihood stuffed, and are then you are put on the next up lowest available fare, which would result in the rather large increase in price.
Where your base fare increases then they will keep you in the same fair fare bucket and if it's more than two dollars they charge you.


So .....
How about a wonderful enhancement and actually make the Flexi fare flexible for goodness sake? No hidden traps no hidden fees no hidden opaque conditions and actually an estimate of what you might expect the fare adjustment would be should you need to apply the "flexible" aspect of your ticket which appears to be weighted heavily against the OP


The rest are food for thought but it does raise many questions that while not stated here, suggest concern (eg would you accept a price variation of 30% on electrical goods, or a house build just because?)


Consumers | ACCC
And it would seem the OP CONSIDERS his consumer rights have not been met here because his impression was the business ad or promotion such as to price was one thing and no way did he expect a 30% price hike would be required to invoke his rights to change his flexible ticket, which in his impression defeated the reason as to why he had paid the higher price in the first place - ie to give him the flexibility to change on demand and that his weaker bargaining position meant "he could be taken advantage of"
There's some really interesting insights on the ACDC page about creating impressions, relative bargaining strength of parties and the scenario of upfront prices where prices are changed where it's not the case of imposed fees (eg change fee) and charges. Makes for interesting discussion points.

 

[opusman]

So clearly an expectation of flexible is nothing more than a waiver of the change fee, and where the fare is cancelled then the $88 applies anyway. Given that situation, makes me wonder why they call it a "flexible" fare?

No, this is not correct. Flex fares also allow day of departure changes, which red e-deals do not.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

So, QP staff in some instances can override the sales staff at the general counters.

Your scenario was over 15 months ago Pooch prior to the rules & regs being more strictly enforced.

They did cut some slack to avgeeks who picked 767 flights for one last hurrah.

A whole lot of AFFers were on QF452(?) 27 Dec 2014 which was going to be the final commercial flight however it was later changed to QF767 later that day and they were rebooked to the later flight without penalty.

 

[CaptJCool]

The facts and evidence suggest otherwise .

taking on face value the OP SELECTED WFOD worst fare of the day on the day of booking, and didn't game the system by selecting the LFOD Last Fare of the Day, when the time came to seek the flexible change, he was asked to pay an additional 30% because of the dynamic pricing strategy which means Base Fares on routes like Canberra-Sydney can significantly rise "on the day of travel". This then means the so-called "flexible" change on the day becomes a mere platitude worth nothing because the dice is loaded heavily against the OP who thought he was "doing the right thing". Through no fault of his own and because of the last minute inflated base fares, it reached a stalemate. Neither party willing to move.

What Would you you suggest ought happen to break this deadlock ?
sure QF has a right to raise the Base Fare it says so in its T&C but one can argue the OP bought the WFOD because of the "flexible" condition and without having any advice as to how much extra would be required to ACTUALLY make the change on the day so when the time came to invoke his right he was not able to do so because of the relative strength of the parties bargaining position ie the cards were stacked against him because of the late high fares because of the Parliament. It could have been worse eg buy tic for $336 and then be asked to pay an extra $200 to "change on the day".

So while it's technically accurate to say flexible can be "changed on the day" unlike red e-deals, is the proof in the pudding ?

Certainly if the OP WAS AWARE of the expected fare adjustment at the time of booking, he could have chosen to proceed or to book a lower priced unchangeable fare because after all, he didn't get the change on the day that he expected because the base fare increase was beyond what he expected it to be because the dynamic pricing strategy means this is going to happen probably more regularly than we might imagine.

This is about the value of goodwill.... If the idea of flexible is that the customer pays a higher upfront price to obtain that fare feature then why would any airline want to make it more of a gamble and thus hard for the OP "to do the right thing" because it's pricing strategy makes it even more expensive "on the day". Yes, you have a right to "change on the day".

But in this instance that right proved as elusive as spinning 0 on a roulette table. The OP GAMBLED on BLACK (because after all he didn't go for the RED (e-deal) and got done by the ZERO.

 

[TheInsider]

So while it's technically accurate to say flexible can be "changed on the day" unlike red e-deals, is the proof in the pudding ?

Of course it is, plenty of people change FOC on the day of departure, even with the lowest fare class flex ticket. It happens all the time and daily, by the hundreds if not into the thousand region and that is just one airport.

 

[Austman]

Your scenario was over 15 months ago Pooch prior to the rules & regs being more strictly enforced. They did cut some slack to avgeeks who picked 767 flights for one last hurrah. A whole lot of AFFers were on QF452(?) 27 Dec 2014 which was going to be the final commercial flight however it was later changed to QF767 later that day and they were rebooked to the later flight without penalty.

But AustraliaPoochie's flight was days before then. And a points redemption (I'm fairly sure).

So not quite the same situation.

http://www.australianfrequentflyer....lights-for-the-b767-63058-41.html#post1168446

 

[opusman]

This then means the so-called "flexible" change on the day becomes a mere platitude worth nothing because the dice is loaded heavily against the OP who thought he was "doing the right thing". Through no fault of his own and because of the last minute inflated base fares, it reached a stalemate. Neither party willing to move.

Let me try to explain where you're wrong.

1. If you just rock up to CBR at 4pm on a Friday and say "I'd like to go to Sydney please", you are going to be paying full fare economy. If there's a seat available at all. Total price (say) $900, with the chance of not travelling at all.

2. If you have a red e-deal booked for 7pm, and you rock up to CBR at 4pm on a Friday and say "I'd like to go to Sydney please", you are going to be paying full fare economy, and you will lose what you paid for the red e-deal. Total price (say) $900 + $125 = $1025.

3. If you have a Flex ticket booked for 7pm, and you rock up to CBR at 4pm on a Friday and say "I'd like to go to Sydney please", you get charged the fare difference between what you paid and full fare economy. No worse than #1, and no risk of not travelling at all because you still have your original booking to fall back on.

 

[CaptJCool]

Perfect summary


The moral of the story is don't bother with a flexible fare on any high traffic late high priced route unless you are willing to pay the outrageous "new" price....
i don't think there's any wrong in stating a contrary view which goes to the reality of what happened rather than the semantics of the academic concept. The OP took a gamble and the roulette wheel rolled ZERO. it still stands that the upfront price T&Cs don't provide any indication of the expected price differential "on the day". Which your example outlines above.

 

[Christoo]

A frustrating situation I bet. Even the plush surroundings of the Canberra lounge don't compensate for waiting around when you can see an alternative. As an aside those Dash 8 flights to and from Canberra tend to have WP+s one up in those first 10-12 rows (probably on flex tickets) so I bet there is not the pressure to sell every seat to make the economics of the flight work.
I tend to buy the cheapest ticket these days (for domestic flights) with a bit each way on the timing. On the rare occasions I can't make it I just buy another ticket. Works out cheaper for me.

This is what I do unless billing a customer.
It's a crazy difference in cost between the fare classes.

 

[Mattg]

I'm not sure whether this has been asked yet, but did Virgin actually have an earlier flight you could have taken, had you booked a similarly timed flight with them and arrived at the airport early?

A more flexible "fly forward" policy is nice, but doesn't help if there are no earlier flights. The reality is that on most routes, including SYD-CBR, Qantas do have more services available to choose from. (Or not choose from in this case, but at least all those extra flights existed.)

 

[RichardMEL]

In the past, before the most recent change, I used to get the old K class FlexSaver fares(as they were then called) and QF were always VERY willing to move forward (this is even before I was P1, so couldn't claim that bias). I have since bought some "Flex" fares and on the odd occasion been able to change flights without issue - but these would be at less peak times on routes with lots of flights (SYD-MEL, BNE-MEL). Since P1 of course I've had incredible ability to get earlier seats which has been greatly appreciated when I've wanted it.

I do think that the OP has some cause for complaint given the "Flex" nature of the fare name, though the fare rules are of course outlined before you click book. This is the sort of thing the ACCC or Fair Trading might have a bit of a look at as regards to misleading(in a way) advertising, but chances of anything being done.. not much.

As for the fare pricing, on routes like SYD-CBR with a huge corporate and government component QF and VA charge these amounts because they can. That's the nature of the beast. It is also taking advantage of the fact that many folks do seek flexibility and ability to fly at differing times. Really the issue is that yield management in the particular example the OP stated (assuming the available seat counts were accurate - 30 seats on Dash8 seem pretty high, but anyway) were being too agressive in not opening up the appropriate bucket, but I'd say it's also probably quite deliberate to close out those lower buckets on day of travel etc.

The fact that the "storm" allowing the lounge angels to invoke an override to allow the OP to fly shows that, in reality, the staff should have used appropriate common sense and let him fly earlier(even if there was no storm). I mean in most cases most airlines would rather get their pax out earlier if they have seats (which they could then potentially resell later, or use for bumps or other issues) so it is a little puzzling but it's also within the fare rules.

my 2 cents.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Really the issue is that yield management in the particular example the OP stated (assuming the available seat counts were accurate - 30 seats on Dash8 seem pretty high, but anyway) were being too agressive in not opening up the appropriate bucket, but I'd say it's also probably quite deliberate to close out those lower buckets on day of travel etc.

The fact that the "storm" allowing the lounge angels to invoke an override to allow the OP to fly shows that, in reality, the staff should have used appropriate common sense and let him fly earlier(even if there was no storm). I mean in most cases most airlines would rather get their pax out earlier if they have seats (which they could then potentially resell later, or use for bumps or other issues) so it is a little puzzling but it's also within the fare rules.

It seems a bit odd that if there were 30 available seats that the cheaper of the flex fares had no seats in that fare bucket. I would expect with that many seats that even award seats ie 'X' class would be available. Makes me wonder if when the agent looked at the list of flights CBR/SYD she's glanced at the number of people left to checkin for that flight ie 30 pax vs the available seats on the flight. The columns are next to each other so can be a trap for young players as easy to confuse the two.

The staff are bound the the rules and the point is there was no flow forward at the time so if they'd checked availabllity and the computer said no that's that. The fact that previously the storm didn't eventuate is not relevant - the point is there was a flow forward last time and this time there wasn't. It's not a case of staff not using common sense as it's not their call to make.

 

[ScottM]

I have found my experience Qantas to be the reverse of this .
While not always , we Mrs GPH and I , have frequently been offers an earlier flight. Mind you , we rarely ask, it is almost always offered.

The issue is Canberra. The route is a massive price gouge. I've never had the problem between other destinations - just hit up for more money almost everytime I want an earlier flight in Canberra.

I've had weeks where I could have flown return to Singapore for cheaper than going to Canberra [ex Melbourne]

I've stopped booking Flex fares and just book the cheapest. The way I've looked at it is QANTAS have become like a bank. They don't give you a fixed mortgage for 30 years, they give you a variable rate mortgage where you have no idea what you'll pay for a truly flexible ticket.

I tend to buy the cheapest ticket these days (for domestic flights) with a bit each way on the timing. On the rare occasions I can't make it I just buy another ticket. Works out cheaper for me.

Same. Our company just changed our travel policy - none of our staff now buy flexible tickets home and some have requested to fly Virgin [which still isn't allowed at this stage]

 

[moa999]

Mind you enough people so buying flex and QF yield will suffer so it's a fine line for them

 

[Awesom Andy]

Mind you enough people so buying flex and QF yield will suffer so it's a fine line for them

There are only so many sale/discount tickets so somebody will be forced to buy flex as long as the planes are being somewhat filled up.

 

[katiebell]

The question is do lounge staff have discretion themselves to do it? And they have told me, several separate times, in different QPs, that they don't. So I don't see the point is claiming that it might depend on which staff member you ask. They have all been very nice but have had to refuse me when the system didn't allow the change.

If you tell a pax you cannot do something it avoids an argument whether you really cannot do that something or just do not want to do it.