Getting a straight answer on forced seat changes

[theevilmuppet]

Its effectively standby as i got clearance to board 5 mins before departing Fiji.

So an international flight? Maybe there is a difference in the rules between international and domestic?

 

[drivatruk]

So an international flight? Maybe there is a difference in the rules between international and domestic?

My understanding is same rule for all flights.

 

[jpk]

I have travelled as a friend of a Virgin employee and was entitled to a staff fare as they can allow 4 friends on their travel list for discounted fares. There is a strict stipulation that anyone on staff travel cannot be seated forward of row 16. I doubt an employee risk losing these entitlements to sit someone up the front.

Thanks for the info. I don't disbelieve you, but FWIW I've seen VA employees on staff travel sitting further fwd than row 16. The people in row 3 may not have been on staff fares - just people known to agents who were happy to look after them. There's been reports of such behaviour on VA over the last few years, gate agents in particular care little for status or even common sense.

 

[theevilmuppet]

Thanks to all who replied.

Virgin responded with a very direct "Unfortunately we can't tell you the specific reason for this change", however they have given me a goodwill gesture of some Velocity points for my enjoyment.

In the end, it was well worth asking about the situation.

 

[Boof1]

I'm really curious to know what does it matter?

You paid for a seat, you got it and you got to your destination. Sure Row 3 is nice, and the fact that you called up to get it for all is great, but it's not like you were flying SYD-LAX. As a status pax I've had last minute flights and been stuck in Row 20 but I don't ask for an explanation on why I'm stuck back there instead of the front rows. I've been sat in Row 4 when Row 3 was full and been told I'm shifting. No questions but when you see the old lady with the walking frame sitting in Row 4 you soon understand why you were shifted.

Here is some food for thought:

- The AFL contract has some specific requirements for the players comfort. This was talked about on Game Day around how Virgin provide the extra legroom seats to the players (and hence I would assume travelling companions). It may not have been to do with the sponsorship of the club but the actual contract they have with the AFL for paid carriage of teams and players.

- Would your thoughts change if it was displaced flight crew? Plenty of times I've seen seat changes due operational reasons and found flight crew in the front rows. Either in uniform, sometimes with a casual jumper over the uniform, and sometimes in general clothing (but the hats normally give it away in the bins above).

- Row 3 isn't guaranteed, it's simply a benefit that is offered when available.

- if by chance something untoward was done by a staff member do you think they would tell you? Or would they discipline the staff member and leave it at that. You have no right to know about employee/employer relations.

Here is a thought: How many times have you sat at the doctors and they have been running late, sometimes an hour late. Do you ask your doctor why they are late? No you don't because of patient doctor rules and because it's common courtesy, but you can assume it's because of operational reasons.

Airline seats are the same.

regards,

Boof

 

[dfcatch]

I'm really curious to know what does it matter?

You paid for a seat, you got it and you got to your destination. Sure Row 3 is nice, and the fact that you called up to get it for all is great, but it's not like you were flying SYD-LAX. As a status pax I've had last minute flights and been stuck in Row 20 but I don't ask for an explanation on why I'm stuck back there instead of the front rows. I've been sat in Row 4 when Row 3 was full and been told I'm shifting. No questions but when you see the old lady with the walking frame sitting in Row 4 you soon understand why you were shifted.

Here is some food for thought:

- The AFL contract has some specific requirements for the players comfort. This was talked about on Game Day around how Virgin provide the extra legroom seats to the players (and hence I would assume travelling companions). It may not have been to do with the sponsorship of the club but the actual contract they have with the AFL for paid carriage of teams and players.

- Would your thoughts change if it was displaced flight crew? Plenty of times I've seen seat changes due operational reasons and found flight crew in the front rows. Either in uniform, sometimes with a casual jumper over the uniform, and sometimes in general clothing (but the hats normally give it away in the bins above).

- Row 3 isn't guaranteed, it's simply a benefit that is offered when available.

- if by chance something untoward was done by a staff member do you think they would tell you? Or would they discipline the staff member and leave it at that. You have no right to know about employee/employer relations.

Here is a thought: How many times have you sat at the doctors and they have been running late, sometimes an hour late. Do you ask your doctor why they are late? No you don't because of patient doctor rules and because it's common courtesy, but you can assume it's because of operational reasons.

Airline seats are the same.

regards,

Boof

Actually Boof - it's not as simple as you make out.

(Although you have a couple of reasonable points).

1/ Preferred seating is a status benefit - yes it's not guaranteed - but it's a status benefit. If you can't "reasonably" provide it - then don't offer it.

And why should status pax be moved for crew?

This isn't a case of "I didn't get my upgrade but saw crew sitting in J".

This is a case of actively being relocated.

It shouldn't happen except under EXCEPTIONAL circumstances.

You're right - if someone did the wrong thing, they're not going to tell us.

But that doesn't mean the question shouldn't be asked.

The entire Velocity program is predicated on members having an expectation that benefits are achievable and will be delivered.

Remove the deliverables; remove confidence in the ability of the program to deliver - and you undermine the entire program from a commercial perspective.

 

[Boof1]

Actually Boof - it's not as simple as you make out.

(Although you have a couple of reasonable points).

1/ Preferred seating is a status benefit - yes it's not guaranteed - but it's a status benefit. If you can't "reasonably" provide it - then don't offer it.

And why should status pax be moved for crew?

This isn't a case of "I didn't get my upgrade but saw crew sitting in J".

This is a case of actively being relocated.

It shouldn't happen except under EXCEPTIONAL circumstances.

You're right - if someone did the wrong thing, they're not going to tell us.

But that doesn't mean the question shouldn't be asked.

The entire Velocity program is predicated on members having an expectation that benefits are achievable and will be delivered.

Remove the deliverables; remove confidence in the ability of the program to deliver - and you undermine the entire program from a commercial perspective.

With respect you seem to be missing the point. It's a status benefit that you are entitled to when available and is reasonably provided when available. The T's and C's allow for seats to be shifted, as does the online check in T's and C's. It's your opinion that you should get the seats and if you don't then Virgin haven't delivered. That's far from the case.

What Virgin have done is within the rules and they don't have to tell you why. In terms of crew, of course they can displace you for crew. If the pilots of my next flight are sitting down the back with me I'd happily give up Row 3 as I would like to think they are rested and relaxed for the next leg. Don't forget that pax'ing as crew counts as duty time hence Virgin should look after them.

The other thing to mention is you are Platinum. Did you think perhaps the people in Row 3 are members of The Club in which case they would trump you for status?

I'm not sticking up for Virgin here. I'm pointing out that it's not that bad.

I am curious though... Did you get Row 3 on the other leg? If you did Virgin reasonably provided it.

Regards
Boof

 

[dfcatch]

No you've missed the point - two of them in fact, actually three:

1/ If the OP wasn't able to select the seats as they were unavailable - then they weren't available and bad luck.

If they were selectable - then they are available. And there are almost ZERO acceptable circumstances that you should subsequently be shifted (unless being shifted up).

Falling back on T&Cs misses the point. Almost nothing in life is guaranteed unless legislated. The most bankrupt airline in the world has no passengers but acted in accordance with its T&Cs. (Ps. The OP never suggested that VA breached its T&Cs).

2/ You most absolutely shouldn't be shifted for anyone who is a Club member. If VA isn't happy putting them in row 25, then put them in an empty J seat.
Your suggestion is like saying that I should kick a silver member out of 12A because I like that seat - ridiculous suggestion.
3/ Crew? Again - absolutely no reason to stick them in an existing passengers seat.
If they are on crew duty travel and need to be rested - put them in J. Or hold back allocation of preferred seats and only release them if they're not needed for crew.

To adopt your reasoning - the only logical conclusion is to remove advanced seat selection.

Either keep it - and reasonably provide it or scrap it and don't.

And your twisting of what "reasonably provide" means doesn't change the facts that if the program offerings, attractions and benefits become unreliable and worthless - so does the share price of VFF.

 

[Boof1]

No you've missed the point - two of them in fact, actually three:

1/ If the OP wasn't able to select the seats as they were unavailable - then they weren't available and bad luck.

If they were selectable - then they are available. And there are almost ZERO acceptable circumstances that you should subsequently be shifted (unless being shifted up).

Falling back on T&Cs misses the point. Almost nothing in life is guaranteed unless legislated. The most bankrupt airline in the world has no passengers but acted in accordance with its T&Cs. (Ps. The OP never suggested that VA breached its T&Cs).

2/ You most absolutely shouldn't be shifted for anyone who is a Club member. If VA isn't happy putting them in row 25, then put them in an empty J seat.
Your suggestion is like saying that I should kick a silver member out of 12A because I like that seat - ridiculous suggestion.
3/ Crew? Again - absolutely no reason to stick them in an existing passengers seat.
If they are on crew duty travel and need to be rested - put them in J. Or hold back allocation of preferred seats and only release them if they're not needed for crew.

To adopt your reasoning - the only logical conclusion is to remove advanced seat selection.

Either keep it - and reasonably provide it or scrap it and don't.

And your twisting of what "reasonably provide" means doesn't change the facts that if the program offerings, attractions and benefits become unreliable and worthless - so does the share price of VFF.

Hmm you seem wound about about this. So let's be clear on a few things as your points above are well out of line with the reality of what happened:

1. At all points through the booking, seat selection, and checkin is it made aware that for operational reasons your seats may change. Just because they were available at the time of booking doesn't mean you will get them. The T's & C's aren't the fallback, they are the guiding principle by which the operational decision can be made and in this case was and most importantly VA don't have to say why.

2. Club members, like it or not, hold higher status. Of course in the pecking order pax would be shifted. Nobody is suggesting it was requested by the Club member. It may have been done either automatically or by senior staff.

3. Crew - of course there is every reason to make sure crew are comfortable and rested.If VA need the seat then they can use it. If they need it for crew then so be it.

You may not be aware that once the flight comes under airport control any seat allocation can be moved for any reason regardless of a pre selection, and the captain can do the same once onboard.

The issue here is that this was one flight and the OP wanted to know details why which VA declined to specify within their rights. You make this out like it's happening every day on every flight. But it's not and I bet you will find the strike rate for a selected seat being the one sat in is well above the 95% mark. Hence the reason to offer it in the first place.

Would I be happy about what happened? Not really.

Would I demand an answer as to why? Nope.

Will this thread stop people being moved in future? No chance.

Am I sick of writing in this thread about a trivial seat selection issue? You betcha.

Regards,
Boof

 

[theevilmuppet]

I'm really curious to know what does it matter?

You paid for a seat, you got it and you got to your destination. Sure Row 3 is nice, and the fact that you called up to get it for all is great, but it's not like you were flying SYD-LAX. As a status pax I've had last minute flights and been stuck in Row 20 but I don't ask for an explanation on why I'm stuck back there instead of the front rows. I've been sat in Row 4 when Row 3 was full and been told I'm shifting. No questions but when you see the old lady with the walking frame sitting in Row 4 you soon understand why you were shifted.

Here is some food for thought:

- The AFL contract has some specific requirements for the players comfort. This was talked about on Game Day around how Virgin provide the extra legroom seats to the players (and hence I would assume travelling companions). It may not have been to do with the sponsorship of the club but the actual contract they have with the AFL for paid carriage of teams and players.

- Would your thoughts change if it was displaced flight crew? Plenty of times I've seen seat changes due operational reasons and found flight crew in the front rows. Either in uniform, sometimes with a casual jumper over the uniform, and sometimes in general clothing (but the hats normally give it away in the bins above).

- Row 3 isn't guaranteed, it's simply a benefit that is offered when available.

- if by chance something untoward was done by a staff member do you think they would tell you? Or would they discipline the staff member and leave it at that. You have no right to know about employee/employer relations.

Here is a thought: How many times have you sat at the doctors and they have been running late, sometimes an hour late. Do you ask your doctor why they are late? No you don't because of patient doctor rules and because it's common courtesy, but you can assume it's because of operational reasons.

Airline seats are the same.

regards,

Boof

Where to begin with your diatribe?

If the AFL contract has specific requirements regarding player comfort (observe, your English needs some remediation), then should such be provided for whilst disregarding commitments made to other customers?

If flight crew are displaced, this happens for a number of reasons - faulty aircraft, weather, family emergencies and illness. All are completely reasonable and able to be communicated, however you are contradicting yourself in assuming that being placed in a different seat is done for any of those reasons. If any seats in the economy cabin are adequate for any paying customer, then they are clearly adequate for all customers needing to travel with the stated conditions.

Regarding Row 3 being a benefit when available, it was offered because it was available at time of inquiry. Again, your basis is flawed.

If something untoward was done by a staff member, why would the company seek to deny themselves a reputation of transparency? Given your assertion regarding staff conduct and policy, I suspect your understanding of business is terribly limited.

Your "thought" is not at all appropriate nor relevant to the situation. If I ask why my displayed loyalty to a loyalty program offered by an airline as a USP (unique selling point - I suspect you may need a definition) is confirmed as made available and then retracted without communication or reason then that is clearly justified within the basis under which said business conducts itself. The idea that a commercial transaction under reasonably expected terms could be compared reasonably to the health of human beings in a medical practice is one of ignorance and folly - you really need some perspective.

 

[theevilmuppet]

Would I demand an answer as to why? Nope.

Will this thread stop people being moved in future? No chance.

Am I sick of writing in this thread about a trivial seat selection issue? You betcha.

If you'd not demand an answer, why did you even attempt to contribute?

Where did anyone in this thread propose or contend that contribution would result in a change in behaviour on the part of Virgin Australia?

If you're sick of writing in this thread about a seat selection issue you consider trivial, then you're both applying your interpretation of the situation and your ignorance of the facts.

It's a remarkably simple basis - over 30 days before travel 3 passengers were given confirmed seating on two flights. On the second flight, none of these arrangements were honoured and no communication or justification was offered before the event or upon inquiry.

If you're having trouble grasping this set of facts and deciding to exclude yourself based on entering the discussion and then finding the discussion too hard to continue, the only person that speaks of is you.

 

[Burrito]

Seat selection not guaranteed. Stated in T&Cs. No explanation required. Sorry move on /end thread

 

[Dr Ralph]

Am I being overly optimistic in expecting a straight answer from Virgin?

In my experience, yes.

 

[theevilmuppet]

Seat selection not guaranteed. Stated in T&Cs. No explanation required. Sorry move on /end thread

Of course selection isn't guaranteed - aircraft substitution is one example where the obvious result is going to be moving people to different seats.

I didn't say an explanation was required, so I'm not sure where you got that idea.

Given Virgin's statements around customer service, it's not unreasonable to expect some level of communication around changes such as this - a statement that everyone I have spoken to from Virgin Australia has completely agreed with and have actually followed through on in the last 2 days with some details as to what happened.

It's not overly difficult to be willing to talk to one's customers.

 

[basso]

The issue may well be that there is no simple record that says why it happened. It may be the best thay can do is to try to recosntruct events as best they can, to get an idea. But your average customer service person isn't necessarily going to spend time on doing that.

 

[theevilmuppet]

The issue may well be that there is no simple record that says why it happened. It may be the best thay can do is to try to recosntruct events as best they can, to get an idea. But your average customer service person isn't necessarily going to spend time on doing that.

This is one thing that frustrates many people - customer service people are often charged with providing the best possible customer experience yet the structures and systems to make this possible (let alone easy) are often not in place.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I can report I've fallen victim to this insidious ploy as well!

Last week, I realised I'd made a cardinal mistake by selecting 3C........on an E-Jet. For those who don't know, 3C on an E-Jet is the worst of row 3 as it's right in the dogleg from J to Y config and you are continually concerned about people tripping over your feet (which are in the aisle) and ending up in your lap and/or bashing your right shoulder all the time. So being the smart FFer, I simply logged on and moved seats to 3D which was still available (this was on Sun, for a Fri flight). I arrived at the airport, checked in and dropped luggage (at the airport, not before) and proceeded to the lounge. Called for boarding, I made my way down to the aircraft and arrived at 3D to find it occupied. I must have had a strange look on my face as the guy sitting in my seat asked "is everything OK" to which I decided I'd best check my boarding pass before I castigated him and very lucky I did as well! To my embarrassment, I was in 3C :shock:. Ok, no great problem, I smiled at the gent and assured him all was fine and took my seat in 3C thinking I must have changed the wrong flight.

Well today, I decided to check my changes and I have a new email booking confirmation showing my seat selection of 3D from last Sunday and I also have the pre-flight day travel reminder which also shows seat 3D, so I wasn't imagining the change and I didn't change the wrong flight. I was moved sometime between my check in of 2 hours before departure and 8am the morning of the day before the flight. 3D and 3F were obviously taken by a couple so I can only imagine a check in staffer must have decided that I, as a solo traveller, could move to give them a seat together. I actually don't mind that bit......it makes sense....but I now wonder if this is becoming, or going to become, more common.

As others (and I) have said, seat selection is not guaranteed, but in my case it looks like I was moved for no other reason as to let a couple sit together in row 3. No football team contract, no sign of being VA crew, no "Club" members (at least they didn't look club memberish) and I'm a platinum on a full flexi fare so I wasn't trumped by that. Be interesting to see developments in the near future. I didn't check in early (I never do) and only did so at the airport, so maybe that's a way to secure your seat.

 

[Boof1]

I wasn't going to contribute again, then I typed up a response but decided to give myself a few days to calm down and think this through.

I really cannot believe the personal attack given that you don't know me, know even less about my education and business knowledge, and seem to miss the point that my original post was intended to give some further reasoning as to why you may have been shifted at OOL. Let me politely point a couple of things out:

Where to begin with your diatribe?

If the AFL contract has specific requirements regarding player comfort (observe, your English needs some remediation), then should such be provided for whilst disregarding commitments made to other customers?

You are correct, I missed the s and for that I apologise. The AFL is a dynamic business and needs travel at short notice on a regular basis. Virgin may be obliged (and again I'm not 100% sure of this just repeating what was stated on a Channel 7 TV show) to provide the extra legroom seats to AFL Travelers. If that is the case I would imagine that Platinum passengers would be shifted for AFL travelers given that the AFL contract is in the many millions per year, against a spend of $10k for Platinum. While I don't know your business, and I'm not going to assume that you're any less worthy than an AFL staff member or player, the odds are that given 2 of the three passengers you were travelling with hold less or no status the AFL contract would win in this game of seat allocation poker.

If flight crew are displaced, this happens for a number of reasons - faulty aircraft, weather, family emergencies and illness. All are completely reasonable and able to be communicated, however you are contradicting yourself in assuming that being placed in a different seat is done for any of those reasons. If any seats in the economy cabin are adequate for any paying customer, then they are clearly adequate for all customers needing to travel with the stated conditions.

VA, to their credit, don't put the Flight Crew in J. They do put them in the extra legroom seats though. I have often wondered if this is a requirement of the EBA for duty travel? It's hard to get good pilots, and to keep them happy. You only have to see the immense pressure that the IAPA, AFAP and VIPA place on the business when they are negotiating the EBA. Perhaps that is a reason for this? If it was simply a member of staff enjoying the benefits of staff travel, I would agree with you that any seat should do the trick, but I do wonder if there isn't some mechanism that gets the flight crew the front rows when on duty travel? (and for what it's worth, and I should have disclosed this earlier I was shifted from Row 3 to Row 4 last year on an ERJ. All of Row 3 had dressed for duty pilots in the seats and there wasn't any apparent weather issues or cancellations of services etc

Regarding Row 3 being a benefit when available, it was offered because it was available at time of inquiry. Again, your basis is flawed.

I don't think that my basis is flawed at all. If the seating is available at the time of booking, it is allocated. It's not confirmed and that is clear throughout the booking, seat allocation, and check in processes that passengers follow. Just because something was offered doesn't mean it was confirmed. Seating is never confirmed until your backside is planted in the seat, and even then it can be changed by airport control or the Captain.

If something untoward was done by a staff member, why would the company seek to deny themselves a reputation of transparency? Given your assertion regarding staff conduct and policy, I suspect your understanding of business is terribly limited.

You suspect wrong. The staff members have a right to privacy, as does the business have an obligation to protect staff. One would imagine that transparency as you see it would lead to a thread on AFF "The OOL lounge staff changed my seats". An internal matter is just that.

Your "thought" is not at all appropriate nor relevant to the situation. If I ask why my displayed loyalty to a loyalty program offered by an airline as a USP (unique selling point - I suspect you may need a definition) is confirmed as made available and then retracted without communication or reason then that is clearly justified within the basis under which said business conducts itself. The idea that a commercial transaction under reasonably expected terms could be compared reasonably to the health of human beings in a medical practice is one of ignorance and folly - you really need some perspective.

Again you suspect wrong, I'm fully aware of the term USP, but thank you on behalf of anyone who may not be aware of it reading the thread.

As mentioned above the seat is allocated not confirmed. The travel is confirmed, the seat you sit in may change so this wasn't retracted for it wasn't committed in the first place.

Perspective on the other hand is interesting, an appointment time at a health care practitioner is allocated, not confirmed. Health Care, like Aviation has a lot of things that can change at short notice that can have significant impacts to individuals or groups. I suggest you try reading Dick Karl's articles in the US edition of Flying Magazine. He is an Oncologist who now in semi retirement fly's Citation jets for a Part 135 operator instead of working the operating theatre. He often draws the parallels between Health Care and Flying (especially when working in Health Care full time in his articles a few years back). That was the perspective I was using.

If you'd not demand an answer, why did you even attempt to contribute?

To try and help you understand some of the reasons why this may have happened.

Where did anyone in this thread propose or contend that contribution would result in a change in behaviour on the part of Virgin Australia?

Your original question:

Am I being overly optimistic in expecting a straight answer from Virgin? Failing that, is it unreasonable to expect that recognition of the airline's conduct actually occur?

Would suggest you were seeking a change in behaviour to get an answer as VA's policy is to state that it's due to operational reasons.

If you're sick of writing in this thread about a seat selection issue you consider trivial, then you're both applying your interpretation of the situation and your ignorance of the facts.

It's a remarkably simple basis - over 30 days before travel 3 passengers were given confirmed seating on two flights. On the second flight, none of these arrangements were honoured and no communication or justification was offered before the event or upon inquiry.

The trivial part came from the constant inference that the seat selection was confirmed.

If you're having trouble grasping this set of facts and deciding to exclude yourself based on entering the discussion and then finding the discussion too hard to continue, the only person that speaks of is you.

The discussion is most certainly not too hard for me to continue. Arguing about a change of seat, when everything published by the operator clearly states that the seat allocated is subject to change, is what is difficult when the other party wants to argue contrary to the published facts.

Regards,
Boof

 

[dfcatch]

The trivial part Boof is that you clearly don't believe that seat selection is an important status benefit.

Given your immense knowledge and expertise in airline T&Cs I'm sure you're aware that the airline basically has no obligation to do anything whatsoever.

They don't have to fly you, they don't have to fly you on time, they don't have to carry your bags on the same flight, and yes - they don't have to seat you together or in your preselected seat.

Now - the point is very simple.

If you're going to offer a status benefit - then pax have a reasonable expectation of it being delivered 99.99999% of the time except in extreme circumstances.

I was in row 24 the other day on VA. I promise you I am a higher status than most if not all the other pax on that plane. Despite the fact that my booking was last minute and I could only select from the remaining seats, according to your logic - I should have had the peeps in my preferred seats relocated to the lavatory.

Displacement should occur so infrequently that this thread should not exist.

The fact that multiple incidents are being reported means the benefit is not being delivered.

That you personally don't care about it - is your business.

The fact that others do - well, that's VA's business problem.

 

[dfcatch]

And you know what else is in the T&Cs - that pax can and do take their business elsewhere - and that's a fact.