General Discussion/Q&A on Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[andye]

While not ideal, initial telehealth (done well) is not unreasonable
From that consult options would be: hospital, advice or arrange further examination with full PPE. Anything less would be medico-legally (let alone ethically) almost impossible
However if there is a patient perception that unable to be seen at all if unvaxed, that could lead to trouble

 

[Quickstatus]

If you are under the age of 12 year or unvaccinated you will need to call the clinic prior to your appointment on 1300 934 325.

Exactly my point...

And the prohealthcare.com.au link says:
"Unvaccinated patients will be offered telehealth only for all consultations, gaps will apply *vaccination clinics exempt. Your doctor will advise of your options if Face-to-Face consultation will be required."

this service is also not discriminatory of the unvaxxed because patients with respiratory symptoms also fall into that category.
So (if this is representative of what's happening), it is a lot different to the strictly no entry with the inference that SA Drs are refusing to provide care to unvaxxed patients.

 

[jase05]

Moved here


My understanding is different. Unvaxxed are initially seen by telehealth or in some segregated way rather than the normal way which is waiting room until called - they are not prevented from seeking a medical consult. After the telehealth, it may be necessary to see the GP in rooms - and this can be arranged.

Could you please check to story by ringing some GP practices and see what their policy is - I suspect it is a little different to strictly no entry...

I will ask around. My GP is based in the Northern suburbs and rotates between 2 locations. He is more than happy to see unvaccinated after the initial Telehealth consultation and a negative test at my location but did say that the other practice he works out of does not allow it and that individual practices can set their own rules in regards to entry conditions.

 

[Quickstatus]

From that consult options would be: hospital, advice or arrange further examination with full PPE

And the unvaxxed are not turned away from hospitals either
For hospitals, PPE is only required until Covid PCR test comes back negative and not a close/casual contact and no respiratory symptoms - even in unvaxxed.
Bottom line: irrespective of Vax status, no one is excluded from medical care

And the AMA's public position does not support excluding patients based on vax status.

 

[VPS]

This is from my Physio where I also do Pilates - so they are not banning unvaxxed for treatment but will work around it, but are banning in the gym - interestingly they have another place with massage and they are not mandating it there so won't be having a massage there any more

From Friday, 26th November 2021, anyone fully vaccinated and attending xx_ will continue to receive care under our current health protocols. For those people who choose not to be vaccinated, are partially vaccinated, do not wish to share their status or are medically exempt, you will in most instances still be able to attend 1:1 physiotherapy consultations in the treatment rooms. All treatment, including exercise prescription, will take place wholly within that space. If Work, Health and Safety issues exist, we will be able to offer Telehealth or alternative options for your treatment going forward. Extra precautions with respect to PPE will be required for both you and your clinician, which may incur a small extra cost. We will also ask that you remain outside in the designated waiting areas until you are called for your appointment.

As per the advice of the Australian Physiotherapy Association, full vaccination will be required to attend all individual gym sessions and group classes for both physiotherapy and exercise physiology. This is to ensure that our at-risk clients, some of whom are immunocompromised, are safe to continue exercise.

 

[drron]

As well as not taking the Hippocratic oath when graduating I also did not take the declaration of Geneva oath. In fact no oath at all.

An article in the MJA in 2002 found only 7 of the then 12 medical schools in Australia and NZ incorporated an oath.Only Flinders and UTas used the declaration of Geneva and Adelaide University used a modified declaration of Geneva.

(PDF) Declarations made by graduating medical students in Australia and New Zealand

PDF | To survey the use of declarations of ethical commitment made by graduating medical students in Australia and New Zealand. Information, obtained by... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Even early in the pandemic there were quite a few of us concerned by the ethical questions and how the Declaration of Geneva was being ignored.

The WMA Declaration of Geneva in times of Covid-19: an urgent ethical call

www.bmj.com

Also I don't think many on here realise that if the profession were to really follow the Declaration of Geneva we really can't refuse to see unvaccinated patients but also should not support vaccine mandates. The AMA has adopted the Declaration of Geneva. They obviously ignore it at times.

 

[Quickstatus]

In fact no oath at all.

No hippocratic oath
No Declaration of Geneva here
But I did take an oath. On graduation day my fellow graduands and I (11 in total) made an oath that we would get plastered and not go home until the sun rose the next morning...

Means Brass Razoo if anyone did. Because medicos are bound by the AHPRA code of conduct which is 9 pages long. Good luck to anyone who thinks they can recite that...

 

[Quickstatus]

For those interested in studies looking at not just level of covid antibody levels but immune memory B and T cells as a marker of true immunity from Covid look here

Memory B and T cells, binding antibody, neutralising antibody, Spike protein, receptor binding domains RBD are all mentioned...

Here is a picture for those who cant read a dry scientific article:

Basically after exposure to vaccine or wild infection the body starts making antibodies but also start making memory B and T cells. The initial period to make antibodies take 14 days or do - the long "inductive period.
but when a second exposure comes along, the memory B andT cells jump into action and produces antibody and killer T cells within a few days - typically 3-5 days and the antibody levels produces can be many times higher than the initial peak antibody level

 

[Quickstatus]

From that consult options would be: hospital, advice or arrange further examination with full PPE

Treat unvaxxed (whether anti or unables) with Empathy not derision.
We dont want these people to think they cannot access healthcare..
Lets not go replicate in the Covid era, the terrible way lepers were treated

 

[Flashback]

First day of legal mandated masks being back on public transport, compliance isn't too bad but similar to early on where most of the non compliant are BAME.

 

[OZDUCK]

Canada has banned unvaccinated travellers over 12 from using trains or planes - nothing about boats.

"There are some exceptions, including valid medical exemptions, travel to remote communities only accessible by plane, and those transiting through Canada en route to another destination.

Most people who qualify for an exemption will need a recent COVID-19 test."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/unvaccinated-travellers-rules-1.6267648?campaign_id=7&emc=edit_mbae_20211201&instance_id=46615&nl=morning-briefing%3A-asia-pacific-edition&regi_id=27763868&segment_id=75701&te=1&user_id=78b12fb46a3c579c3489da98384d35a8

 

[drron]

And as usual the stable doors were locked after the horse had bolted.

First confirmed US case of Omicron coronavirus variant detected in California

The United States' first confirmed case of the Omicron coronavirus variant has been identified in California.

edition.cnn.com

The world now faces what should be an easy decision. Lockdown and finish off a few more businesses and economies or finally start to accept we are not going to eliminate this virus and start living with it.

 

[Pushka]

And as usual the stable doors were locked after the horse had bolted.

First confirmed US case of Omicron coronavirus variant detected in California

The United States' first confirmed case of the Omicron coronavirus variant has been identified in California.

edition.cnn.com

The world now faces what should be an easy decision. Lockdown and finish off a few more businesses and economies or finally start to accept we are not going to eliminate this virus and start living with it.

I heard a ‘leaked’ who report just now that suggested this variant was mostly milder, no evidence to suggest vaccines not effective and that PCR tests can pick it up (duh) but more transmissible.

 

[Lynda2475]

No need to be locking the stable doors given the South Africa data says it doesnt cause serious illness and the NSW data is supporting the same.

 

[Lynda2475]

Definition of karma ?

Anti-vaccination Christian broadcaster dies after contracting COVID-19

Founder of American religious network Daystar TV, Marcus Lamb, dies weeks after contracting COVID-19, as a review into claims of disinformation finds no breach of Australian TV codes.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Quickstatus]

PCR tests can pick it up (duh)

Depends on whether the Covid PCR primer used is valid for Omicron
So it is never 100% sure with a new variant. (Though it now appears to be still good)

Basically there are 2 primers used (IIRC) for a Covid PCR test. Both code for the RNA which code for the "N" section of the covid virus.
Any major changes to the Virus through mutation could possibly change the accuracy of the PCR.
In the case of Omicron it appears that most of the mutations are on the RNA coding for the S section meaning the N section is still stable enough to mean that the standard Covid test still works.
It is not difficult to get a primer specifically for Omicron but this means running more than one PCR test on the same sample because you dont know which variant will be positive.

PCR primer: a short DNA sequence of about 8-10 nucleotides used to detect specific sequences in a PCR sample.

 

[drron]

Two differing views on Omicron.First the out of touch AMA.

AMA vocal as new COVID-19 variant emerges

AMA put the focus back on the need for dedicated national quarantine facilities and a more vigorous booster program as the new COVID-19 variant made its way to Australia.

www.ama.com.au

And a more nuanced view.

Don't Freak Out About Omicron

My working theory continues to be that much of the press has PTSD from the early coverage of COVID. At the time, meat lockers were being used to store bodies. Hospitals were overrun. Doctors could not see their families. Parents were dying alone in hospitals. The COVID storyline has never really...

ewerickson.substack.com

 

[drron]

Some more on covid symptoms.some people not regaining their sense of smell.

Loss of Smell Could be Extensive

A research letter published in JAMA Otolaryngology-Head & Neck Surgery on November 19, 2021, found perhaps as many as 1.6 million COVID-19 survivors in the U.S. haven't recovered their sense of smell (olfaction) after more than six months.

www.coronavirustoday.com

More WHO officials saying don't panic over Omicron.

IMF chief says Omicron could dent global economic growth

The International Monetary Fund is likely to lower its global economic growth estimates due to the new Omicron variant of the coronavirus, the global lender's chief said at the Reuters Next conference on Friday in another sign of the turmoil unleashed by the ever-changing pandemic.

www.reuters.com

More evidence that Omicron is more infective than delta.

It said 74% of all the samples it had genetically sequenced last month had been of the new variant, which was announced a week ago but was first found in a sample taken on Nov. 8 in Gauteng, South Africa’s most populous province.

The number of new cases reported in South Africa doubled from Tuesday to Wednesday.

WHO epidemiologist Maria van Kerkhove told a briefing that data on how contagious Omicron was should be available “within days”.

BioNTech’s CEO said the vaccine it makes in a partnership with Pfizer was likely to offer strong protection against severe disease from Omicron.

Omicron already taking over in South Africa as countries tighten borders

The heavily mutated Omicron variant of the coronavirus is rapidly becoming dominant in South Africa, less than four weeks after being identified.

www.cnbc.com

So far no reports of death with Omicron.

 

[drron]

This pandemic is certainly bringing out some truly ridiculous situations.In Germany they have strengthened the requirement to be double vaxxed.This now means if you want to be euthanised you need to be vaxxed.

Assisted death only for vaccinated, euthanasia association says

Anyone wishing to be euthanized now has to first present proof of vaccination or recovery from Covid, as per the new guidelines issued by Germany's euthanasia association.

www.rt.com

But in Sweden you can have your vax certificate on a microchip and have it implanted.

Swedes opting to embed chip in hand to comply with proof of vaccine requirement

Some Swedes are voluntarily embedding their vaccine passport information in microchips that have been inserted under their skin.

www.bizpacreview.com

The discrimination against the unvaccinated is gaining momentum with the Nevada Government pension fund charging an extra amount for the unvaccinated.

Unvaccinated Nevada State Workers To Pay Monthly Insurance Surcharge

State workers enrolled in public employee healthcare plans will be charged up to $55 per month if they aren't inoculated from COVID-19.

www.huffpost.com

 

[Quickstatus]

But in Sweden you can have your vax certificate on a microchip and have it implanted.

Don’t the CovidVax jabs already come with microchips?