Frequent flyer points on a Government (PATS) funded flight

[markis10]

Not at all, internal policies are not binding on someone that is not a member of the organisation. They haven't made the full policy available to the OP. It simply does not apply by any reasonable measure.

Lots of assumptions there, given the OP mentions the fraud warning I would suggest they are incorrect! If you partake in a scheme that you are of course bound by its conditions - somewhat common sense.

 

[medhead]

Lots of assumptions there, given the OP mentions the fraud warning I would suggest they are incorrect! If you partake in a scheme that you are of course bound by its conditions - somewhat common sense.

There was no fraud warning in the OP. quote it.

Scheme conditions are very different to whole of government travel policy.

 

[markis10]

There was no fraud warning in the OP. quote it.

Let me help you with that selective reading issue (appreciate that mobile devices can be difficult at times):

in their email it mentioned that I can't claim any frequent flyer points as I will be committing fraud.

Scheme conditions are very different to whole of government travel policy.

All government departments with such schemes are encouraged to implement the travel policy in that scheme:



This seems to be the case with the scheme in question

 

[mannej]

There was no fraud warning in the OP. quote it.

Scheme conditions are very different to whole of government travel policy.

I think you should re-read the OP as the fraud warning is specifically mentioned

 

[markis10]

I might take this opportunity to express my best wishes to the OP, unfortunately no points but I am hoping the trip results in good news, being remote is ever easy in such circumstances where your health is involved.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

If QF were going to offer a contact fare that had the proviso no ff points be earned why would they not put steps in place like they do for other contract fares & put some kind of inhibitor in the pnr so they won't get points but will still earn SC?

I think this would be the case & I think it's PATS not understanding how it works hence the fraud warning.

Any scheme that relies on self regulation or an honour system is not going to get 100% compliance. It's all too easy to add your ffn to a pnr via the website, at an airport kiosk or giving the card to the CSA at checkin.

A pax's ff number contains important info like special meal requests, mobile contacts (to advise of flight changes or times) & if you had elite status you would need your ffn in the pnr to pre-allocate yourself a forward seat.

I don't think it's fraud to have your ffn in the booking - only if you were to earn points but I don't think you would anyway.

 

[trentusjuventus]

It sucks but yes in WA it changed that you are not meant to use any FF points that are acquired through flying on PS trips for personal trips... I think you can claim the points but the travel agent the public sector uses is supposed to track the points so that they can be used for future government travel when enough have been amassed...

I can attest that this was also the case when I worked for a VIC gov department a few years back. All points accrued on work-funded travel were to be used for future work-related travel. Like everyone else, I am also at a bit of a loss as to the relationship between this and fraud. The only thing I can see is that you would be making (a very small) personal gain from public funds, but still doesn't really sound like enough to be called fraud in my books. Good luck with your quest!

 

[medhead]

Let me help you with that selective reading issue (appreciate that mobile devices can be difficult at times):

There I go. Now to the point that it is not fraud.

Then if the OP specifically states that they are not entitled to earn points and requests to have their number added to the booking to take advantage of their paid QC membership and have the flight show on their activity statement. In that case, they will have dealt honestly with the matter. Again not fraud.

Plus the fact that airlines have the ability to add a number without points being earned, as per my experience.

All government departments with such schemes are encouraged to implement the travel policy in that scheme:

View attachment 15740

This seems to be the case with the scheme in question

The clause applies to government agencies, it outlines what they are required to do. It does not say members of the public.

 

[medhead]

I don't think it's fraud to have your ffn in the booking - only if you were to earn points but I don't think you would anyway.

I'd go a step further and say "only if you dishonestly earn points." Not even earning points should be fraud if the passenger has not claim points and has explicitly informed the relevant parties of their ineligibility to earn points.

As you say the government department should sort this out up front.

 

[burmans]

Personally I think this is a very strange way to behave by the government departments involved. If they want these flights to be non-points earning, presumably as a cost cutting measure, and they are the ones doing the booking, surely the way to do so is directly with Airlines (e.g. as a non-points earning booking class) rather than threatening a sick patient in this way.

I must note I don't think the patient should get any points but there are good ways to do things and to me this is just the wrong way to go about it.

 

[casanovawa]

I think the facts roughly are, with the WA Govt anyway (i haven't studied this stuff indepth as its just a pain in the butt that puts me off even wanting to do Govt travel), that they haven't gone the next step of negotiating flights without FFPs, and maybe don't want to get that involved, as its not a cost cutting measure but public expenditure probity type thing of getting private benefit from public funds...

They say you can claim FFPs but they must be used for future government travel, which actually could be a sensible way of off setting future govt travel costs and a cost saving measure for govt... That would mean they would need to have one type of flights that allow FFPs for PSs and one type of travel for non PSs that don't, which is probably beyond what they are interested in doing... Its just the way that have implemented this, from my perspective anyway, is that they have done it so draconianly and ham-fistedly that screw them, i'm not interested in claiming the points for future Govt travel and mixing them in with my private haul and screwing about, stuff it if i get no benefit out of it why should i bother with that nonsense...

And now that i read the part of the Prem's ciruclar that was quoted earlier they talk about not claiming points or other benefits, which could be construed as the SCs as well i suppose... That from the people who get to ride up the front of the plane all the time anyway... I don't begrudge them, but don't have much time for screwing the little guy down to nothing... Like i said if a few PSs are ramping up their travel to what looks like unecessary amounts, target them but scrimping on every little thing usually leads to aberrant behaviour anyway rather than achieving your goal...

As i also said, putting my job at risk from an audit for a lousy, p!ssy amount of points that would take several trips to add up to a fare i could buy from Tiger for $100 is just not worth it... I don't know if you could accumulate a certain amount of points and then leave the PS, not sure they could do anything about that, I was talking to a guy who had previously worked for Mark Vaile who was like the Fed Trade Minister i think and he reckoned he had enough points to fly around the world in J 2-3 times, i assume they were at least partially accumulated during his work... But still, to hard, just easier not to bother and risk running afoul of the regs...

 

[The Rok]

In all honesty a flight from remote central WA is likely to only earn 1,000 points, its not like they would be defrauding the state government of billions.

 

[markis10]

In all honesty a flight from remote central WA is likely to only earn 1,000 points, its not like they would be defrauding the state government of billions.

Dammit - its the principle that matters

On a serious note, its often the small fry that get caught out!

 

[Danger]

Personally I think this is a very strange way to behave by the government departments involved. If they want these flights to be non-points earning, presumably as a cost cutting measure, and they are the ones doing the booking, surely the way to do so is directly with Airlines (e.g. as a non-points earning booking class) rather than threatening a sick patient in this way.

In the case of the Commonwealth Government, it is not a cost saving measure but a face saving measure. I have specifically heard Alan Joyce say that it cost Qantas more to ensure points aren't earned on government travel then it does for them to actually provide the points.

I think the facts roughly are, with the WA Govt anyway (i haven't studied this stuff indepth as its just a pain in the butt that puts me off even wanting to do Govt travel), that they haven't gone the next step of negotiating flights without FFPs, and maybe don't want to get that involved, as its not a cost cutting measure but public expenditure probity type thing of getting private benefit from public funds...

I've always had an issue with this rationale from the Commonwealth (that you are not supposed to derive a personal benefit from public funds). If it was such an issue then those on government travel wouldn't be allowed to even earn status credits, or pay for their expenses on a FF or reward earning credit card, or accrue hotel loyalty points . . . It's purely about the negative publicity "millions of frequent flyer points" earned by politicians gets in the media.

 

[777]

In the case of the Commonwealth Government, it is not a cost saving measure but a face saving measure. I have specifically heard Alan Joyce say that it cost Qantas more to ensure points aren't earned on government travel then it does for them to actually provide the points.

I've always had an issue with this rationale from the Commonwealth (that you are not supposed to derive a personal benefit from public funds). If it was such an issue then those on government travel wouldn't be allowed to even earn status credits, or pay for their expenses on a FF or reward earning credit card, or accrue hotel loyalty points . . . It's purely about the negative publicity "millions of frequent flyer points" earned by politicians gets in the media.

I thought the obvious reason was to discourage excess travel.

Of course Qantas is going to say that! It's not about the cost to Alan Joyce of providing points it's about the cost to taxpayers of people chasing them.

 

[casanovawa]

I thought the obvious reason was to discourage excess travel.

Of course Qantas is going to say that! It's not about the cost to Alan Joyce of providing points it's about the cost to taxpayers of people chasing them.

No i don't think its to discourage excess travel, as i said that could be managed at a dept level without dropping this draconian lot of BS on the whole PS... There would be very little of that sort of rorting i would imagine going on, but quite controllable on a dept/program basis... In fact in the WA PS i would imagine with the last several years of budget cuts that a minimal amount of flying would be being done anyway (its always one of the first budget items that is easy to monitor and cut) so i think the days of junkets are long gone...

I think one way you can view it it has some rationale and in another way (to me) it seems stupid... As Danger eludes to, if you look at it from a whole of government level the amount of FFPs being accrued might add up to several million and how dare public servants get that much gain from hard working Joe Public, blah, blah, blah... In fact when you consider that there is usuall 100,000+ PSs in that system the amount of FFP/per person is SFA... Most of the PS travellers probably don't even claim them, then a majority might end up with 5,000 or 10,000 or something relatively useless and then you have a few, which are probably stuck flying in lousy Y anyway who have to trundle back and forth to exciting Canberra....

So from an individual point of view there is probably stuff all earning being done, but from a high level system view it probably looks like stacks being earned and how outrageous that is!!! So they come down hard and you feel like your being micro scrutinised and as i say for me, they can screw themselves as i'm not working myself into a lather over it... Did they end up saving much money? Don't think so... Did they end up putting a stop to a lot of blatant impropriety?? Probably not... Is it another way to to make the individuals that make up the whole feel annoyed and off side?? More than likely... So what a big, big win that is...

 

[777]

No i don't think its to discourage excess travel,

Incentive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Personally I think this is a very strange way to behave by the government departments involved. If they want these flights to be non-points earning, presumably as a cost cutting measure, and they are the ones doing the booking, surely the way to do so is directly with Airlines (e.g. as a non-points earning booking class) rather than threatening a sick patient in this way.

I don't think there's an actual non-points earning booking class as they can differentiate what's a points earning fare vs what isn't eg in the case of a JASA & a Classic Award ticket which are both booked in "U" class.

They say you can claim FFPs but they must be used for future government travel, which actually could be a sensible way of off setting future govt travel costs and a cost saving measure for govt...

That would mean they would need to have one type of flights that allow FFPs for PSs and one type of travel for non PSs that don't, which is probably beyond what they are interested in doing...

I think the whole points earning thing for Govt Departments is way too much of a Pandora's box to even attempt to administrate.

Who would be the rightful owner of 8,000 point loyalty bonuses or the 50,000 option if LTG is attained?

What about booking the award travel for business purposes? It's one thing for the decision makers to stipulate points must be used for business travel but will they know 353 days in advance when their trips are going to be to secure X or U class seats?

 

[ecg]

I'm going to be blunt here, but a question like this is so typical of the me, me, me attitude of society these days.

The OP has either been provided with a free or subsided airfare yets still wants more. And despite being explicitly told one of the conditions of the airfare is that no points will be earned they still need to know why and whether it is enshrined in law somewhere. Perhaps they should just accept that it is one of the conditions of the fare.

If they are so deparate for points fine, they'll just have to purchase a full commercial airfare.

 

[casanovawa]

I think the whole points earning thing for Govt Departments is way too much of a Pandora's box to even attempt to administrate.

Who would be the rightful owner of 8,000 point loyalty bonuses or the 50,000 option if LTG is attained?

What about booking the award travel for business purposes? It's one thing for the decision makers to stipulate points must be used for business travel but will they know 353 days in advance when their trips are going to be to secure X or U class seats?

I don't know what they can see or what information they get... I imagine some of those bonuses they might not see, but the travel agent that has the government contract, as far as i recall reading, was meant to track the points earned and then probably once you had accrued enough in their estimation maybe the next flight would automatically come back as being told to use the points of the PS instead of the Dept paying for it?? Dunno, not a lot of people are flying anymore and any applications probably needs to go through about 4 levels of approval... As i said its not worth some audit finding something and you lose your job for about $30 worth of FFPs... I rented a van a couple of months back from a rental agency and again they had some sign about being able to earn Velocity points, but who knows what and how they track any of these points, so just couldn't be stuffed rolling the dice...