Frequent flyer points on a Government (PATS) funded flight

[PilbaraJen]

Hello!
I was hoping someone would help point me in the right direction...
As part of the WA Royalties for Regions program WA has a division called PATS or the Patient Assistance Travel Scheme, basically it helps out-of-towners get into the city for medical treatment.
PATS have kindly booked me onto a flight next week so I can see a specialist, and in their email it mentioned that I can't claim any frequent flyer points as I will be committing fraud... I could understand this if I was a government employee, flying on a business flight, but this is quite clearly a personal flight, I'm wondering why I can't claim?

Surely they employee sole trader contractors and don't tell them "we will only pay you the cost amount to you as you can't profit from government funds"

Is there a specific law that says I can't claim these points? If I pay for my Qantas club, but then the ticket doesn't have my number on there why can't I have it added to my ticket to access something I already pay for?
Any help would be appreciated!

 

[markis10]

You can access the Qantas Club by showing your card, claiming FF points is fraud, and you would be foolish to attempt to do so given the warning.

 

[Moody]

You can access the Qantas Club by showing your card, claiming FF points is fraud, and you would be foolish to attempt to do so given the warning.

I fully understand that some organisations (mainly government) choose to negotiate fares which don't accrue FF points. But if this is not such an airfare then the Scotsman in me feels affronted that the points (paid for) have to be thrown away for no good reason.

And how is it different to lounge access? Neither points nor lounge access is available without the said airfare, and to be honest the lounge access is the more valuable. Makes the situation even more ridiculous.

 

[markis10]

I fully understand that some organisations (mainly government) choose to negotiate fares which don't accrue FF points. But if this is not such an airfare then the Scotsman in me feels affronted that the points (paid for) have to be thrown away for no good reason.

And how is it different to lounge access? Neither points nor lounge access is available without the said airfare, and to be honest the lounge access is the more valuable. Makes the situation even more ridiculous.

Qantas Frequent Flyer and Qantas Club are different cost centres (corporate entities) I would imagine, which is why public service airfares allow access but no points which is an additional cost, charity fares are similar it seems in that context.

 

[777]

It's weird. The way it's worked for me in the past with Virgin and Qantas is that when a govt fare has been booked for me it has simply shown up as booking into a class that earns SCs but does not earn FF points.

A bit weird in this case as to what "claim FF points" actually means? Surely you can attach your number to booking so you can access the lounge? If it's in a non-earning class it should be a non-issue. If it's an earning class and you accidentally earn FF points send an email to the generic qantas FF address and inform you they have credited you by mistake.

 

[puppysparkes]

Purely speculating but it sounds like there are zero visiting medical officers or locums prepared to travel to your region. Consequently you wouldn't want to push it and end up with a telehealth consult. That said your condition dictates the overall management and course of treatment.

I can't recall a specific law, but there is certainly policy for some states and federal government officers, stipulating they would breach policy/code of conduct, if points were accrued and used for personal travel. I'm not sure how well it was policed considering the AFP had flight marshals accruing over 2 million points and WP status.

 

[muppet]

Would love to know how it's fraud.

Fraud would be inventing the illness or medical treatment for the purpose of obtaining points, not the accrual of a minor incidental benefit at no additonal cost to the government.

I have heard of public servants punished, but that's a breach of the employment terms.

EDIT: The APSC website does mention the criminal code specifically in relation to points.

 

[quokka77]

Good luck PilbaraJen with your medical condition (sincere) and your points chase (sarcastic).

 

[hdfb]

It's funny, as a public servant, you can't earn points but you can earn status credits.

 

[casanovawa]

It sucks but yes in WA it changed that you are not meant to use any FF points that are acquired through flying on PS trips for personal trips... I think you can claim the points but the travel agent the public sector uses is supposed to track the points so that they can be used for future government travel when enough have been amassed...

I didn't bother to claim any the last couple of flights i did back in probably 2010, can't be stuffed with that rigamarole...

So i suppose its a case of the points can be claimed but should be used for future government travel, the SCs really are neither here nor there, in claiming the points for future travel you can't unclaim the SC or defer them to the dept or something, they are allocated on a personal basis... If they could screw you around on them they probably would as well... For me on an ok salary, its not worth getting in trouble and potentially losing that salary over some lousy Y return flight that might accrue me 6,000 QFF points which is a whopping 1/3 of a flight to the east coast...

And if PATS is buying you the ticket, i guess they have the right to tell you what comes with and what doesn't... I think they really are taking that private benefit from public expenditure cough a bit far... If there were a few PS who were racking up lots of flights to build up their points, just take action on them!!!

 

[RooFlyer]

You can access the Qantas Club by showing your card, claiming FF points is fraud, and you would be foolish to attempt to do so given the warning.

Wondering if you could expand on why it is a "fraud", please? I'm not contesting or opposing your knowledge of the subject (and agree no claim should be made given the warning), just interested in why it might be found to be such. (I might get a govt contract in the future ).

"Fraud" usually involves gaining a good or benefit by deception. I don't know the ins and outs of the PATS scheme, nor govt funded travel in general, but "improper", "against the rules" "banned" might be appropriate descriptors, but I can't see "fraud".

 

[markis10]

"Fraud" usually involves gaining a good or benefit by deception. I don't know the ins and outs of the PATS scheme, nor govt funded travel in general, but "improper", "against the rules" "banned" might be appropriate descriptors, but I can't see "fraud".

Gaining a benefit your not entitled to putting it simply, the benefit being the value of the points where that value is intended to go to the government, as per the Premiers Circular 2009/4.

 

[RooFlyer]

Gaining a benefit your not entitled to putting it simply, the benefit being the value of the points where that value is intended to go to the government, as per the Premiers Circular 2009/4.

Ah, OK. That the benefit should go to the government, not simply that it shouldn't go to the flight-taker makes it clearer, thanks.

 

[Hvr]

Wondering if you could expand on why it is a "fraud", please? I'm not contesting or opposing your knowledge of the subject (and agree no claim should be made given the warning), just interested in why it might be found to be such. (I might get a govt contract in the future ).

"Fraud" usually involves gaining a good or benefit by deception. I don't know the ins and outs of the PATS scheme, nor govt funded travel in general, but "improper", "against the rules" "banned" might be appropriate descriptors, but I can't see "fraud".

The FMA Act 1997 says:

4. Definition of Fraud
4.1 For the purpose of the Guidelines, fraud against the Commonwealth is defined as ‘dishonestly obtaining a benefit, or causing a loss, by deception or other means’.

You've been told you're not allowed to obtain FF points, therefore claiming them would be fraud as per the Act.

I am amazed when people receive a benefit (the flight) that can be considered essential and then want even more.

If this was a case of a single mother getting 10c a week extra there would be calls to string her up and moans about massive welfare fraud.

 

[medhead]

My experience with public service flights under such rules is that you are allowed to earn the status credits and can add you number for such purposes. I called up and specifically said I'm not allowed to earn points buy here's my number for the status credits. Flight posted sans points.

 

[markis10]

My experience with public service flights under such rules is that you are allowed to earn the status credits and can add you number for such purposes. I called up and specifically said I'm not allowed to earn points buy here's my number for the status credits. Flight posted sans points.

Have you flown since 2009 at the expense of the WA government, if not then the experience is not relevant?

8.1 Consistent with the principle of not using public expenditure for private advantage, frequent flyer points or benefits under other incentive or loyalty schemes accumulated in the course of official air travel must not be used for private purposes. They may be used only for further official purposes

Each public service has its own guidelines, what works with one does not always translate to being OK with another, no difference to other employers in that respect.

 

[medhead]

Have you flown since 2009 at the expense of the WA government, if not then the experience is not relevant?



Each public service has its own guidelines, what works with one does not always translate to being OK with another, no difference to other employers in that respect.

The first obvious point is that the OP is not a public servant so the rule you quote is irrelevant.

The relevance of my experience requires connecting a couple of ideas, which usually isn't hard. The OP has been told they can't claim points. Status credits and other benefits have not been mentioned. In the experience I recount, I was also told I can't claim points. The airline when informed of this restriction were able to credit the flight without points but with everything else. I didn't think it would be hard to understand the relevance of my experience is that status credits can be given without claiming points.

I also suggest you go back and edit your post #4 in the thread as the rule you've now quoted doesn't seem to make a distinction between cost centers.

Gaining a benefit your not entitled to putting it simply, the benefit being the value of the points where that value is intended to go to the government, as per the Premiers Circular 2009/4.

That's not fraud. That's called theft.

 

[markis10]

The first obvious point is that the OP is not a public servant so the rule you quote is irrelevant.

That rule is not just for public servants but for anyone travelling on government funded travel in WA, very relevant.

 

[elbarto]

It's funny, as a public servant, you can't earn points but you can earn status credits.

There was no effective mechanism to control what happened to the points after they were earned. And since they were earned at government expense the view was they were property of the government. They let status credits be earned so that they aren't getting applications from frequent travelers to pay for Qantas Club and VA lounge memberships.

 

[medhead]

That rule is not just for public servants but for anyone travelling on government funded travel in WA, very relevant.

Not at all, internal policies are not binding on someone that is not a member of the organisation. They haven't made the full policy available to the OP. It simply does not apply by any reasonable measure.

Oh and I'm waiting for you to claim that it would be reasonable to deny access to medical treatment over such a policy.

Anyway, at least your silence acknowledges the relevance of my point.