Facebook Debacle

Daver6

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Um, I don't know about cost. A domain name is only like AUD 10 to AUD $30 per year. Web hosting basic like shared host is like USD 30 to USD $50 per year. Any kid could set up a basic HTML or WordPress. And the good thing is, you can have a centralised e-mail for contact like info@club , and you are not at the mercy of Facebook deleting your post or what not, or have a similar club name to some other club in another country. 🤷‍♂️ Maybe I'm thinking too business like.

I think you've just proven my point re cost. You've listed a bunch of costs. Facebook is free. Any kid is also likely to land up with an insecure website. You haven't included any maintenance costs. Or is the kid going to work for free? You truly get what you pay for when it comes to websites. Finally, you haven't included email hosting costs.

Unless your club is about hate speech, you don't need to worry about Facebook deleting posts in your group. My wine club uses a private Facebook group for communication and organising/creating our tasting events. If you want to replicate that on your own website, with proper security and privacy, you're looking at much more significant costs than your free kid setting up a basic HTML website.

Finally, you now require all group members to regularly log in to yet another website. The advantage of Facebook is it's a one stop shop.
 

OATEK

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Unless your club is about hate speech, you don't need to worry about Facebook deleting posts in your group.
That is a narrow view of what really happens. Hate speech seldom crosses my FB page if ever, but I do get the "This post is no longer available" quite a bit.

For example, car clubs put out all sorts of posts, about recent accidents, events etc. And a number of these would fall under the news category. A rail group recently posted about a major derailment, with links to Fire & Rescue, newspapers etc - all disappeared and only some came back after the recent contretemps.

I think many groups will have to consider more formal arrangements away from FB, perhaps not as formal as AFF.
 

Daver6

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That is a narrow view of what really happens. Hate speech seldom crosses my FB page if ever, but I do get the "This post is no longer available" quite a bit.

For example, car clubs put out all sorts of posts, about recent accidents, events etc. And a number of these would fall under the news category. A rail group recently posted about a major derailment, with links to Fire & Rescue, newspapers etc - all disappeared and only some came back after the recent contretemps.

I think many groups will have to consider more formal arrangements away from FB, perhaps not as formal as AFF.

I took the OPs comment about FB deleting posts to refer to things being moderated and not related to the current news ban.

Secondly, what you're seeing as "This post is no longer available" in FB groups is usually the result of someone sharing a post from elsewhere that doesn't have the right permissions for others to see. An example would be say I post something on my feed. My post visibility is to see something other than global. If one of my friends then shares my post to a group, only people in that group who are also my friends would see it. Everyone else would see "This post is no longer available".
 

OATEK

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I took the OPs comment about FB deleting posts to refer to things being moderated and not related to the current news ban.

Secondly, what you're seeing as "This post is no longer available" in FB groups is usually the result of someone sharing a post from elsewhere that doesn't have the right permissions for others to see. An example would be say I post something on my feed. My post visibility is to see something other than global. If one of my friends then shares my post to a group, only people in that group who are also my friends would see it. Everyone else would see "This post is no longer available".
What I was referring to is where I have seen a post, and later it has the no longer available tag. It may be that permissions were changed by original poster after the original post, or that FB broke the link.
 

RooFlyer

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What gets me cross is people or organisations who organise something and say 'Details on Facebook' or 'Register via out Facebook page' . This includes various bits of the University of Tasmania, who I've had to take to task pointing out that no, not everyone is on FB ... Sometimes they sound amazed, as in "Isn't everyone is on FB?"
 

Chicken

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I think you've just proven my point re cost. You've listed a bunch of costs.

Maybe you have mis-read my post.

Some of the information below are also factually not correct, I'll try to clarify them.

Any kid is also likely to land up with an insecure website.

This is not correct and also does not apply. A basic web site for a club, with static pages (saying just using HTML or WordPress), does not require any specific security management, other than keeping your passwords secure. Security of the web server is managed by the web hosting company, not the customer / user.

You haven't included any maintenance costs.

There is no maintenance cost for such a web site, other than the cost to write up and type up the material, which you have to do even if you use Facebook.

Or is the kid going to work for free?

Of course. Aren't most clubs run by volunteers? Since it is this time of the year, do you know that even the Mardi Gras and the Mardi Gras Film Festivals, being massive events in Sydney involving tens of thousands of people, are also 99% run by volunteers?

Even if you use Facebook, won't the kid also need to upload whatever has been written to Facebook?

Same same?

You truly get what you pay for when it comes to websites.

True, but you are talking about a web site for some club or local association, you are not talking about building a shopping cart. This is also why you could get away with your suggestion of using Facebook.

Finally, you haven't included email hosting costs.

There is no such thing as extra e-mail hosting cost. If you pay for cPanel hosting, you get SMTP e-mail included, always.

If you want to replicate that on your own website, with proper security and privacy, you're looking at much more significant costs than your free kid setting up a basic HTML website.

Wait on, so you are suggesting that, a high quality professional web site could be replaced by Facebook? I hope that is not what you meant!

Finally, you now require all group members to regularly log in to yet another website. The advantage of Facebook is it's a one stop shop.

If you use Facebook, you also need your members to regularly log in to Facebook. Same problem?

This is why you don't use Facebook for sending out notifications. You use WhatsApp or Signal groups. I am with a few activist movements, I have also worked in some large festivals in Sydney. Activist groups have moved over to Signal groups, and festivals or similar all use e-mail + WhatsApp groups, because there is no guarantee that people have Facebook, especially as more and more volunteers are saying they do NOT have Facebook, but everyone has a phone so everyone has e-mail and WhatsApp.

And to further show some light on this, I have my own domain name and web site, and I'm currently paying annual fee of:
- USD 8.5 for domain name (Dynadot)
- AUD 36 for cPanel hosting (Zuver)
This is a total costs of approximately AUD 48 per year. If a club cannot find $48 a year, you have a much bigger problem than a web site.
 
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Daver6

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This is not correct and also does not apply. A basic web site for a club, with static pages (saying just using HTML or WordPress), does not require any specific security management, other than keeping your passwords secure. Security of the web server is managed by the web hosting company, not the customer / user.

You're now comparing apples and oranges. A Facebook group is much more advanced than a website with only static HTML. All members can do with static HTML is read. There is no ability to interact, create events and share photos.

WordPress is notorious for having plugins with security flaws. Someone needs to keep on top of this and keep plugins up to date.

There is no maintenance cost for such a web site, other than the cost to write up and type up the material, which you have to do even if you use Facebook.

See above about Wordpress

Of course. Aren't most clubs run by volunteers? Since it is this time of the year, do you know that even the Mardi Gras and the Mardi Gras Film Festivals, being massive events in Sydney involving tens of thousands of people, are also 99% run by volunteers?

Even if you use Facebook, won't the kid also need to upload whatever has been written to Facebook?

Same same?

No, not at all the same. Anyone can maintain a Facebook group. You need certain skills to maintain a website properly.

Wait on, so you are suggesting that, a high quality professional web site could be replaced by Facebook? I hope that is not what you meant!
I didn't say or imply that.

If you use Facebook, you also need your members to regularly log in to Facebook. Same problem?

To an extent yes, same problem. Main difference is a good proportion of the population is already logging in to Facebook and receiving notifications on their phone. Your static HTML webpage example doesn't change. And if you admin made a change to the page, they need to manually notify members of the update. Sure it can be done, but it's a lot more work.

This is why you don't use Facebook for sending out notifications. You use WhatsApp or Signal groups. I am with a few activist movements, I have also worked in some large festivals in Sydney. Activist groups have moved over to Signal groups, and festivals or similar all use e-mail + WhatsApp groups, because there is no guarantee that people have Facebook, especially as more and more volunteers are saying they do NOT have Facebook, but everyone has a phone so everyone has e-mail and WhatsApp.
That's a pretty flawed argument. You're saying you don't use Facebook for sending out notifications for updates because there is no guarentee people have Facebook. You do realise there is no guarantee people have whatsapp and Signal. In fact, I'd suggest more people have Facebook than Signal.

And to further show some light on this, I have my own domain name and web site, and I'm currently paying annual fee of:
- USD 8.5 for domain name (Dynadot)
- AUD 36 for cPanel hosting (Zuver)
This is a total costs of approximately AUD 48 per year. If a club cannot find $48 a year, you have a much bigger problem than a web site.

This conversation started with you asking
Why don't people set up a web site for the club or whatever? Everyone got access to a browser?
and I said cost and complexity. By your own admission you've highlighted the cost in your example of $48. In anyone's world $48 is more expensive than $0. As for complexity, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say 99% of volunteers would find it much easier to host and maintain a Facebook group than build and maintain a website.

I'm not saying there isn't a place for websites and other mechanisms of communication, but for your average club/group it is the simplest and cheapest way to achieve what's needed for the layperson.
 

Chicken

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That's a pretty flawed argument. You're saying you don't use Facebook for sending out notifications for updates because there is no guarentee people have Facebook. You do realise there is no guarantee people have whatsapp and Signal. In fact, I'd suggest more people have Facebook than Signal.

Signal? No. WhatsApp? Yes.

I finished a week long festival on Bondi Beach about 2 months ago. E-mail was the comm method for pushing out notification. There was Facebook group, but no one was on it, and many volunteers said they didn't have Facebook. All updates on shifts and who does what were done via e-mail.

I also just finished at a large festival in Sydney which went on for the last 2 weeks in Sydney CBD and wrapped up on Thursday (pretty obvious what that festival was). E-mail and WhatsApp were the comm methods. Not enough volunteers for some shifts? E-mail out, and they get filled. When something happens and requires escalation? WhatsApp group which everyone was on.
 

Daver6

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Signal? No. WhatsApp? Yes.

I finished a week long festival on Bondi Beach about 2 months ago. E-mail was the comm method for pushing out notification. There was Facebook group, but no one was on it, and many volunteers said they didn't have Facebook. All updates on shifts and who does what were done via e-mail.

I also just finished at a large festival in Sydney which went on for the last 2 weeks in Sydney CBD and wrapped up on Thursday (pretty obvious what that festival was). E-mail and WhatsApp were the comm methods. Not enough volunteers for some shifts? E-mail out, and they get filled. When something happens and requires escalation? WhatsApp group which everyone was on.

Not sure what the point is that you're making here?

I'm not suggesting Facebook groups are suitable to every single situation. For a simple club, like my wine club as the example I used, a Facebook group is much more convenient, secure and cheaper than setting up a website. I've made no claim that a Facebook group is a good alternative for running a festival and organising shifts. Horses for courses.
 

Chicken

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Not sure what the point is that you're making here?

I just provided a counter argument to some of the comments you made about costs, like security and extra cost for e-mail hosting, which you said are costs but they don't actually exist at all.

Of course, you are not going to set up a web site if it is just 10 people like going to each others' houses and drink wine.

What I am saying are for things like football clubs or CWA or similar, which is where this thread was discussing, that even clubs and shopping sites were being wiped by Facebook. I don't think we were talking about 10 or 20 people in a private Facebook group talking about wine, were we?
 

Daver6

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What I am saying are for things like football clubs or CWA or similar, which is where this thread was discussing, that even clubs and shopping sites were being wiped by Facebook. I don't think we were talking about 10 or 20 people in a private Facebook group talking about wine, were we?

I dont think group size or type was ever specified really :)
 

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