Eurobusiness seating - I don't get it.

[smit0847]

I have an all J USDM trip coming up which includes short legs on LH and SK. Looking at the seat maps it's the standard narrow-body 'Eurobusiness' seating of standard Y seating with the middle-seat blocked.

While I've accepted these legs are going to be nothing special I just cannot work out why they have this seating for J. Were these aircraft all-Y when first fitted and they then later invented the J product and decided it would be cheaper to just block the middle seat rather than re-fit larger seats? Why didn't/don't they install wider seats with more legroom like on QF and VA 737 J? I accept that you don't need a flat-bed for a short flight but would any carrier who has 2-2 proper wide seats with more legroom (like QF and VA) have a distinct advantage over everyone else who offers this coughpy Eurobusiness Y seat? Do Europeans just accept it because everybody does it?

 

[Ewing]

Sounds like the QF 734s.

Or is it like this: Hvad er forskellen mellem economy class og business class? - YouTube

:mrgreen:

 

[The Rok]

I would imagine that because of the pure volume of flights and therefore aircraft, it's easier to be able to chop & change planes as and when required.

Some flights are all Y, no J.

 

[samh004]

Probably allows them the flexibility to operate a larger J class, or larger Y class. Some services might be all Y, yet you'd have some very lucky pax in J, and less of them, if there was a proper J cabin. While the seats might not be that much different, the service should be improved (though generally isn't)... and isn't it all about the status credits anyway?

 

[Austman]

It's been this way for decades.

It gives the airlines good flexibility for C-class. The curtain is movable down the cabin, seating stays the same.

SK did have convertible 737s - going from 6 abreast to 5 in C-class.

Icelandair is the only European airline that I know of that operates narrow body aircraft (757s) with proper 2-2 seating in business class.

 

[Aussie_flyer]

you would be surprised just how many rows are allocated for business class on some of these flights, often half of the aircraft

 

[elbarto]

They might get a competitive advantage out of having proper J seating but operationally they would be disadvantaged. Having dedicated J seating would restrict the routes they can use the aircraft on and also reduce the amount of passengers that can be moved during times of disruption. BD had 2-2 seating in J on their A321 but I'm not sure if BA is keeping them in that config.

 

[The Rok]

They might get a competitive advantage out of having proper J seating but operationally they would be disadvantaged. Having dedicated J seating would restrict the routes they can use the aircraft on and also reduce the amount of passengers that can be moved during times of disruption. BD had 2-2 seating in J on their A321 but I'm not sure if BA is keeping them in that config.

So far I have only been on 2 ex BMI planes that are now operated by BA. Both have been fitted with the standard 3 + 3 with the middle blocked off.

 

[anat0l]

Many people here have already alluded to most of the reasons that I would agree with.

In a somewhat offsetting factor, in many cases the cost differential between Y and J in Europe shorthaul is smaller than that we are 'used' to seeing here in Australia.

In addition, the market in Europe is much, much, much more dense than it is in Australia (even though Australia has one of the world's busiest air routes, namely Sydney/Melbourne, with Brisbane/Sydney not too far behind). With a huge mix of low cost carriers and legacy carriers, EU261 provisions, higher movement charges, higher fuel costs, and the imperative need to offer a comprehensive daily schedule on many routes, it probably comes to no surprise that Euro Business is what it is, and probably more surprising why it isn't more expensive (though that probably comes down to more expensive = not enough people will buy it).

I'm not sure what Europeans are looking for in a shorthaul Business class, but I'm guessing it's substantially different to what we would say in Australia.

I suppose that if one carrier were to install a "real" J on their aircraft, apart from needing to keep it a fixed number of seats (unlike the "flexible" arrangement mentioned by a number of posters previously), they probably could draw a bigger crowd, but then you'd have to balance it against how much you'd have to charge for the seat in order to recover the cost of it.

Euro Business also (usually) comes with no IFE. You get a decent snack (most of the time, and supposedly even a decent hot meal on longer (medium haul) Euro Business flights, e.g. on BA CE) and basic alcohol (two drink rounds most of the time).

I know the USA carriers have "real" premium seats in their.... *sigh* domestic "First"... though suffice to say in the FF world you are a "sucker" if you buy First in the USA on cash (some present company here obviously excepted), viz. the cabin is usually full of auto-upgraded elites, which is nigh often not the case in Europe. I flew SFO-LAS which is just over an hour (same time as FRA-LCY). LH gave me a tasting plate which made for a nice snack. UA, despite having a larger-ish bar on board, offered crisps, chocolate or nuts. Maybe I should be thankful it was complimentary.

VS is coming online with shorthaul, I wonder if they will buck the trend.

Have you ever been on Euro trains and sat in first class? You might be very disappointed (some exceptions noted). Luckily for you, the differential cost to second class was probably not too much.

 

[markis10]

I have an all J USDM trip coming up which includes short legs on LH and SK. Looking at the seat maps it's the standard narrow-body 'Eurobusiness' seating of standard Y seating with the middle-seat blocked.

While I've accepted these legs are going to be nothing special I just cannot work out why they have this seating for J. ..... I accept that you don't need a flat-bed for a short flight but would any carrier who has 2-2 proper wide seats with more legroom (like QF and VA) have a distinct advantage over everyone else who offers this coughpy Eurobusiness Y seat? Do Europeans just accept it because everybody does it?

Of course Qantas for the last 20 odd years have had that very same setup in the 734s!

 

[anat0l]

Of course Qantas for the last 20 odd years have had that very same setup in the 734s!

With the only advantage over Euro Business of TVs (alright, in the aisle), slightly more width and more pitch in those rows (sort of a 'yay').

 

[The Rok]

Many people here have already alluded to most of the reasons that I would agree with.

In a somewhat offsetting factor, in many cases the cost differential between Y and J in Europe shorthaul is smaller than that we are 'used' to seeing here in Australia.

In addition, the market in Europe is much, much, much more dense than it is in Australia (even though Australia has one of the world's busiest air routes, namely Sydney/Melbourne, with Brisbane/Sydney not too far behind). With a huge mix of low cost carriers and legacy carriers, EU261 provisions, higher movement charges, higher fuel costs, and the imperative need to offer a comprehensive daily schedule on many routes, it probably comes to no surprise that Euro Business is what it is, and probably more surprising why it isn't more expensive (though that probably comes down to more expensive = not enough people will buy it).

I'm not sure what Europeans are looking for in a shorthaul Business class, but I'm guessing it's substantially different to what we would say in Australia.

I suppose that if one carrier were to install a "real" J on their aircraft, apart from needing to keep it a fixed number of seats (unlike the "flexible" arrangement mentioned by a number of posters previously), they probably could draw a bigger crowd, but then you'd have to balance it against how much you'd have to charge for the seat in order to recover the cost of it.

Euro Business also (usually) comes with no IFE. You get a decent snack (most of the time, and supposedly even a decent hot meal on longer (medium haul) Euro Business flights, e.g. on BA CE) and basic alcohol (two drink rounds most of the time).

I know the USA carriers have "real" premium seats in their.... *sigh* domestic "First"... though suffice to say in the FF world you are a "sucker" if you buy First in the USA on cash (some present company here obviously excepted), viz. the cabin is usually full of auto-upgraded elites, which is nigh often not the case in Europe. I flew SFO-LAS which is just over an hour (same time as FRA-LCY). LH gave me a tasting plate which made for a nice snack. UA, despite having a larger-ish bar on board, offered crisps, chocolate or nuts. Maybe I should be thankful it was complimentary.

VS is coming online with shorthaul, I wonder if they will buck the trend.

Have you ever been on Euro trains and sat in first class? You might be very disappointed (some exceptions noted). Luckily for you, the differential cost to second class was probably not too much.

VS are wet leasing the aircraft from EI for domestic routes so no proper J seating and no IFE.

I do recall reading somewhere recently that VS said their domestic product will be all Y anyway.

 

[Aussie_flyer]

the bd midhaul fleet had 2-2 seating but the intra Europe were the 3-3 layout in business.

 

[anat0l]

Here's an interesting thread which I stumbled on in connection to this - it's on FlyerTalk:

OS "business class" - if it is supposed to be a joke, I didn't find it funny - FlyerTalk Forums

The OP wrote a lengthy rant to the airline and received some form of compensation with a reply. Needless to say, the OP obviously hasn't flown or heard of Euro Business before this, so he was in for a rude shock from the start, then complained just like any American could.


Anyway... all aside, the thread also reminded me a bit further... even though J is not great product in Europe, they still get priority check-in (a bit of God send in European airports - no joke). They also get lounge access, and, in many cases, the lounges are relatively well equipped (third party lounges possibly aside). LH's lounges in Germany are very reasonable, despite sometimes the lack of free internet and the very industrial grey look.

It should be noted that, I believe across the carriers in the USA, with the possible exception of Virgin America, lounge access is not granted to pax who purchase a domestic First class ticket. In addition, elite members of a USA-based carrier's FFP (with one exception I know of) do not normally get lounge access on wholly North American itineraries. Once you get into a lounge, there isn't usually a lot in terms of food. The bar is usually adequate to quite good (don't forget to tip the bartender!).

 

[tuapekastar]

Here's an interesting thread which I stumbled on in connection to this - it's on FlyerTalk:

OS "business class" - if it is supposed to be a joke, I didn't find it funny - FlyerTalk Forums

The OP wrote a lengthy rant to the airline and received some form of compensation with a reply. Needless to say, the OP obviously hasn't flown or heard of Euro Business before this, so he was in for a rude shock from the start, then complained just like any American could.


Anyway... all aside, the thread also reminded me a bit further... even though J is not great product in Europe, they still get priority check-in (a bit of God send in European airports - no joke). They also get lounge access, and, in many cases, the lounges are relatively well equipped (third party lounges possibly aside). LH's lounges in Germany are very reasonable, despite sometimes the lack of free internet and the very industrial grey look.

It should be noted that, I believe across the carriers in the USA, with the possible exception of Virgin America, lounge access is not granted to pax who purchase a domestic First class ticket. In addition, elite members of a USA-based carrier's FFP (with one exception I know of) do not normally get lounge access on wholly North American itineraries. Once you get into a lounge, there isn't usually a lot in terms of food. The bar is usually adequate to quite good (don't forget to tip the bartender!).

And IIRC full fare F on certain 3-class transcons (on AA, at least). I know, picky!

 

[Austman]

Being a bit pedantic - but from flying 100s of intra-Europe flights in business class since 1985, it's always been called C-class.

Perhaps to differentiate between true long-haul J-class?

 

[elbarto]

VS is coming online with shorthaul, I wonder if they will buck the trend.

They're bucking it so much that they're not even bothering with J

 

[Aussie_flyer]

They're bucking it so much that they're not even bothering with J

That's not 'bucking it' since BA offer no business on domestic either. Just economy class

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I have an all J USDM trip coming up which includes short legs on LH and SK. Looking at the seat maps it's the standard narrow-body 'Eurobusiness' seating of standard Y seating with the middle-seat blocked.

While I've accepted these legs are going to be nothing special I just cannot work out why they have this seating for J. Were these aircraft all-Y when first fitted and they then later invented the J product and decided it would be cheaper to just block the middle seat rather than re-fit larger seats? Why didn't/don't they install wider seats with more legroom like on QF and VA 737 J? I accept that you don't need a flat-bed for a short flight but would any carrier who has 2-2 proper wide seats with more legroom (like QF and VA) have a distinct advantage over everyone else who offers this coughpy Eurobusiness Y seat? Do Europeans just accept it because everybody does it?

The new configuration of 3+3 with an empty middle is actually an improvement over the convertible seat units which contracted (and the ABC side) and expanded (on the DEF) side to provide 2+3 seating. If you were unlucky enough to be on the DEF side you could still have a middle seat

It's purely a case of economics - and that there can be very high demand for business class on some flights - far too much (or too little on the return leg for example) to warrant 2+2 wide cushy fixed seats. Aside from Turkish Airlines pretty much the last we saw of fixed 2+2 on narrow bodies was when LH finally dropped its first class cabin from intra-Europe flights.

LH did however reintroduce bigger, fixed seats in a 2+2+2 configuration on their intra-european A300s shortly before the type was withdrawn from service. Prior to that they came with the standard 2+4+2 seating which when required for business class was converted to a wider 2+3+2 seating (with one of the middle 4 compressed to make the others wider).

Overall I prefer the current arrangement with a guaranteed middle seat. And the service is usually excellent. Particularly on LH.

 

[seanpodge]

Did a few flights in Europe about six months ago on TK and LH. It really is a bit of a shock to see what passes for European business class. Certainly not something that I'd pay for with my own money, or points for that matter. This was particularly so since I already have *A Gold and so already get pretty much all the other non-on board benefits anyway.

On my LH flights, I was thrice on an A321. Given that one can select seats including emergency rows 23 hours before departure free of charge and that the emergency rows in the LH321 have a fully clear row infront of them, just setting one's alarm and being close to the internet can get you an seat far superior to anything forward of the curtain for an economy price. Worked for me 3 out of 3 times.