Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[Berlin]

Isn't this an embarrassment. Everyone else, from clients to regulators, have stopped these aircraft flying whilst Boeing and FAA have been actively trying to downplay it (even to point of implying these others were acting without basis). Now, despite their claims the aircraft are airworthy, they ground the model themselves. Talk about "head in the sand".

Well put! Holding out for so long hasn’t achieved anything for them but creating a dodgy image problem. Long overdue, until we know anything more detailed.

 

[DC3]

Isn't this an embarrassment. Everyone else, from clients to regulators, have stopped these aircraft flying whilst Boeing and FAA have been actively trying to downplay it (even to point of implying these others were acting without basis). Now, despite their claims the aircraft are airworthy, they ground the model themselves. Talk about "head in the sand"....

Agreed. Like pulling teeth, in the USA. I'm seeing "Trump bows to pressure" headlines: Trump bows to pressure, grounds Boeing 737 Max-8 jets — World News with Matt Bevan

Edit: At least it's been done

 

[juddles]

Boeing has grounded all 737 max aircraft
Boeing grounds entire crash aircraft fleet

Lionair 610 crash

I was a tad early posting this........

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Lionair 610 crash

I was a tad early posting this........

Unfortunately it was very prophetic.

 

[Quickstatus]

Agreed. Like pulling teeth, in the USA. I'm seeing "Trump bows to pressure" headlines: Trump bows to pressure, grounds Boeing 737 Max-8 jets — World News with Matt Bevan

Edit: At least it's been done

Hard to know, maybe he did maybe he didn’t.
Maybe he was working behind the scenes putting pressure on FAA/Boeing and when they didn’t play, he forced their hand?.

Some suggest other information came to light which helped that decision along

 

[Must...Fly!]

Some suggest other information came to light which helped that decision along

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you will, but I think that's a face saving measure. They committed to saying the aircraft was safe, when the dominoes fell all around them, the Canadians and the Americans couldn't hold on any longer than they did.

I think a discussion about the impartiality of the FAA in 2019 needs to be had.

 

[JB expat]

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you will, but I think that's a face saving measure. They committed to saying the aircraft was safe, when the dominoes fell all around them, the Canadians and the Americans couldn't hold on any longer than they did.

I think a discussion about the impartiality of the FAA in 2019 needs to be had.

Would love to know if all of the former Boeing employees who are now on FAA are fully divested financially from Boeing - no more stock, no more stock options, no pension tied to stock or dependent on company staying solvent (meaning not in a segregated trust account). If not, can never trust them re Boeing.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Let's just be grateful that the statistics held true and there were no other crashes in those few days of deliberation.

I wonder how many others are out there like me ... trying to imagine myself as a family member of one of those who lost their lives in the Ethiopian crash. I think I'd be absolutely inconsolable, devastated and livid at the the thought that Boeing and the FAA delayed rectification measures whilst arguing over the extent necessary.

I'm also wondering how it is that Boeing and the FAA were able to state so categorically that the planes were airworthy, when both knew without doubt there were issues which needed to be rectified. Programming planes to crash, surely is not an ideal solution to a pitching up problem without further safety net programming. I'm also wondering how robust these sensors are? I presume they are quality gear, but when you read reports, it appears there are an unusual number failing or reporting false feedback.

I genuinely hope these issues can be resolved rapidly. I genuinely hope these issues are resolved with something more acceptable than band-aid solutions, which appears to be the MO for the whole design of this aircraft.

EDIT - I do feel for Boeing somewhat, as they wanted to design and build a whole new aircraft, but were railroaded into this re-powered option by some powerful clients.

 

[JB expat]

Let's just be grateful that the statistics held true and there were no other crashes in those few days of deliberation.

I wonder how many others are out there like me ... trying to imagine myself as a family member of one of those who lost their lives in the Ethiopian crash. I think I'd be absolutely inconsolable, devastated and livid at the the thought that Boeing and the FAA delayed rectification measures whilst arguing over the extent necessary.

I'm also wondering how it is that Boeing and the FAA were able to state so categorically that the planes were airworthy, when both knew without doubt there were issues which needed to be rectified. Programming planes to crash, surely is not an ideal solution to a pitching up problem without further safety net programming. I'm also wondering how robust these sensors are? I presume they are quality gear, but when you read reports, it appears there are an unusual number failing or reporting false feedback.

I genuinely hope these issues can be resolved rapidly. I genuinely hope these issues are resolved with something more acceptable than band-aid solutions, which appears to be the MO for the whole design of this aircraft.

EDIT - I do feel for Boeing somewhat, as they wanted to design and build a whole new aircraft, but were railroaded into this re-powered option by some powerful clients.

Hope those families have access to a really good aviation plaintiff’s attorney.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Hope those families have access to a really good aviation plaintiff’s attorney.

I doubt there will be any shortage of those doing the door knocking rounds.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Is the MCAS a Deja-Vu?
From pprune - LSAS
http://www.md-11.org/md11/AFS Panel.pdf

That sounds like a great system! Uses the elevator to change pitch. In no circumstance does the system trim let alone full nose down. If there's an impending stall it will actually "reduce pitch until the AOA is sufficiently reduced". It also gives the pilot ultimate control with an amount of force to be applied to override the system rather than reaching for switches. 50lbs is 22.7kg and easily attainable to regain control. Even easier when closer to the ground (below 1500ft) only 2lbs (900g) of force needs to be applied.

 

[Quickstatus]

However the stabiliser is then trimmed by the system to maintain the pitch attitude.

 

[jb747]

However the stabiliser is then trimmed by the system to maintain the pitch attitude.

Automatic pitch trim is common in modern (last 30 years) airliners. It In itself it is not a problem as it's being used in such a way that elevator authority is maintained.

 

[Quickstatus]

Yes it sounds like that the stabiliser trim is the secondary flight control - after the elevator makes the primary flight control input

 

[Justinf]

Before Boeing grounded the fleet, I wonder how many of its corporates would have happily flown on the 737 Max?

 

[ozfflyer]

Before Boeing grounded the fleet, I wonder how many of its corporates would have happily flown on the 737 Max?

100% as long as they knew the pilots were trained on the new aircraft

 

[jb747]

Before Boeing grounded the fleet, I wonder how many of its corporates would have happily flown on the 737 Max?

I'd expect that most of Boeings ‘corporates’ are not engineers, and even if they are, would have had no involvement in the engineering decisions made during its development

So, they probably blindly followed the motto of ‘if it’s not Boeing, I’m not going’, just like so many others.

 

[Quickstatus]

Interestingly ET has not retired “302” as is common practice after a crash

 

[NZflygirl]

From the Oz ( paywalled)

Aireon LLC, a company that provides air traffic surveillance through a global network of satellites, said it provided the detailed information about the Ethiopian Airlines’ flight information in the past two days to Canadian authorities, as well as the FAA, the US National Transportation Safety Board and other authorities, after they requested the data, a spokeswoman for the company said.

The company uses equipment on satellites to track data that plane transponder transmits, including a flight’sspeed, altitude, heading, and position. Updates are provided at intervals of less than every 8 seconds to provide a global, near-real-time picture of flights. Such data can be used to reconstruct a flight path, and spot occurrences where planes fly erratically.

I saw some info on that after. This one isn't behind a paywall and also indicates the FAA had the information before Canada but reached their conclusion AFTER Canada pulled the MAX.
Aireon space-based ADS-B data helps in driving decision on 737 MAX groundings – PaxEx.Aero

I don't know much of anything about technology but it seems so cool!! Plane has ADS-B transponder which Flightradar24 tracks via receivers from the ground which people can host voluntarily and these satellites track from above! It's really just a byproduct the data collected is useful in accidents as well. I wonder how well FR24 data replicates some of the satellite data.

And as an aside, Air Canada would have had me as a paying customer plus a $200 change fee if they had only put through my request last night. Today I’m going for a full refund so I can rebook with a better alternative. Such foolish choices by the USA and Canadian Regulators as well as the airline.

From what I can see on social media Air Canada are providing refunds to those who paid to change recently. Good luck with it.

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you will, but I think that's a face saving measure. They committed to saying the aircraft was safe, when the dominoes fell all around them, the Canadians and the Americans couldn't hold on any longer than they did.

I think a discussion about the impartiality of the FAA in 2019 needs to be had.

I think this one is a toughy. It's not like there are thousands of companies making planes like Boeing and Airbus so imagine there's a lot of expertise there. The FAA doesn't have the expertise to challenge Boeings equipment so they end up relying on the folk from Boeing. Can't really ask Airbus to look it over. It means the FAA ends up being the mouthpiece of Boeing.

I'm also wondering how it is that Boeing and the FAA were able to state so categorically that the planes were airworthy, when both knew without doubt there were issues which needed to be rectified. Programming planes to crash, surely is not an ideal solution to a pitching up problem without further safety net programming. I'm also wondering how robust these sensors are? I presume they are quality gear, but when you read reports, it appears there are an unusual number failing or reporting false feedback.

I genuinely hope these issues can be resolved rapidly. I genuinely hope these issues are resolved with something more acceptable than band-aid solutions, which appears to be the MO for the whole design of this aircraft.

EDIT - I do feel for Boeing somewhat, as they wanted to design and build a whole new aircraft, but were railroaded into this re-powered option by some powerful clients.

Bit harsh. I saw someone's comment about Boeing trying to solve a hardware plane design problem with software.

FAA/Boeing statements just seemed like PR fluff. Especially when they knew a fix was required to avoid 'impact with terrain'. That just sounds totally contradictory to the 'our aircraft are safe' line they trotted out. Nothing they said made me feel safe as a passenger. They basically were saying keep flying until the analysis is in. There's no evidence it's us........ currently...

Flying has been SO safe in recent times, and then out of nowhere 2 crashes, same aircraft, new, soon after take off, both pilots reporting flight control issues only 5 months apart. That's a huge departure from previous stats. I'm like - YOU can keep flying, I'm going off to fly an aircraft with a much better and longer safety history. Get back to me when you've got your results and I'll think about it. Of course if all the travelling public thought this way then those planes wouldn't be making any money on those flights and end up grounding themselves for commercial reasons. There just wasn't any need to take the risk with relevant info around the corner.


(Ugh - I got distracted so couldn't finish or post this earlier so I expect there's another 30 posts been put up by now!)

Edit: And black box going to France apparently.

 

[Berlin]

So, they probably blindly followed the motto of ‘if it’s not Boeing, I’m not going’, just like so many others.

How funny- I know this saying the other way round rather but it was mostly my (German) dad and my French host dad during my year in Toulouse for all places who used to say it when I was a kid