DJ pax frogmarched off plane

[Hvr]

Two angry holidaymakers frogmarched off Virgin flight

FEDERAL police have frogmarched two angry Melbourne holidaymakers off a Virgin Blue plane after the pair were told the plane was too heavy to fly.

• Sunday Herald Sun
• April 24, 2011 12:00AM

The drama preceded a chaotic first day of the Easter break at Melbourne Airport, where a baggage meltdown left thousands of holidaymakers fuming.
The Easter weekend got off to a bad start on Thursday when an embarrassed Virgin Blue captain was forced to call for two volunteers to leave the plane after extra fuel was needed to fly through bad weather to Bali.

Yeah it's a no-news story but if true it's worth talking about.

Wonder if the last two on board had the last two BPs issued or it was just an arbitrary decision to pick them?

Guess it shows that it is worth it to check it and then board early. And would status have helped to not be off loaded?

 

[anat0l]

Like all "good" news stories, two stories intertwine in the article.

First, I'll deal quickly with the "broken belt" excuse at MEL viz. JQ & QF. I believe QFCSA has alluded to some of the real reasons for the holiday chaos, but the sickie rate and ill-testing and design of systems for resilience against stress scenarios is ridiculous. A few people that should be dragged out into the street and shot, and life moves on.

Now the focus of the topic. Firstly it is probably unlikely that one can predict the weather before a plane can be sold out (or sold to a certain capacity that necessitated this drastic action), and anything can change in a few hours. Admittedly it was probably most undignified that two passengers needed to be involuntarily denied boarding (or offloaded after boarding) due to weight. But what are the alternatives:

• Two volunteers decide to get off the flight. Hopefully they are compensated. Perhaps DJ didn't offer a good deal to sweeten the crowd. Either way, didn't happen, so IDBs were necessary.
• Cancel or delay the flight. Accommodate everyone, find a bigger aircraft or hope the weather gets better. Finding a bigger aircraft is temporally infeasible; hoping the weather gets better to fly is in the hands of the Gods. You could also put pax on other flights that may be able to tolerate landing in such weather (e.g. JQ, or SQ via SIN) - also complicated. In any case, makes the news? Yep.
• Throw off a few more bags and put them on the next flight. Better than removing two pax? Possibly, although some pax will be most annoyed when they arrive in DPS to be told they don't have bags for a night or more. Makes the news? Good chance.

I don't know if DJ have an IDB policy (heck, does any Australian carrier have one? There is an "Overbooking" policy, but this is hardly given at the check-in counter, and this is not an overbooking situation), so under what term in the CoC can they kick off pax in this kind of incident I have no idea. Assuming that a term exists that they can exercise that power, it is usually at their discretion if they must choose someone to involuntarily offload, then they can have any sort of criteria to do so. Or they could just pick names out of a hat. Or they could have a race - one lap around the airport - the last two to finish are kicked off. Just kidding in the last instance. In this case, they've come up with a modest answer - the last two to check-in. No one is happy to be involuntarily denied boarding, but unfortunately it had to come to police coming on board and frog marching them off the aircraft?

A second check of another thread shows that DJ have a set compensation schedule if you are denied boarding, which includes a full credit for the flight you cannot board. Hopefully the two offloaded also have travel insurance, since they'll necessarily need to make arrangements with their accommodation and possibly tour operators in DPS to reaccommodate their involuntarily modified schedule.

 

[malmacdowall]

Whilst it seems a no news story... I am astounded that the weight of 2 pax can make such a difference.... That said.... Maybe a good incentive to go to weight watchers before a big trip.... PA announcement "it's going to be a big storm so we need two fat ones or three skinny ones....."

So does this mean they estimate weight of pax on boarding ? Or does the plane actually have a way of measuring the weight on board? Maybe they could check the weight of some of the "carry on" luggage that some pax seem to think is acceptable.... Seriously... If your second piece of carry on is your "handbag" and it has it's own set of wheels... Then off you go... Your voted off the island... Bring your torch to tribal council... Your going home...

 

[notmensa]

Wonder if the last two on board had the last two BPs issued or it was just an arbitrary decision to pick them?

I've been on one DJ flight where this happened. The SYD-HBT flight had been cancelled and pax were being routed through CBR. We had boarded the CBR-HBT flight when the announcement was made.

DJ staff initially asked for volunteers to offload - the offer was to be put on a later flight, plus for a full credit for this flight, plus another flight credit to the same value, plus food vouchers. DJ staff also said that if no-one volunteered, they would have to involuntary offload pax starting at the lowest class of fare.

People who had been re-routed from SYD already could not volunteer - which reduced the number of pax who could voluntary offload.

There were no volunteers. Four pax were offloaded and boy were they unhappy. Los of swearing, lots of "we booked our flights months ago" and "we've already been travelling for xx hours."

 

[Wannabee]

I note that the article said that due to the weather they had to double the amount of extra fuel required. say the two pax and luggage weighed 200kg, does that mean that they were only holding 200kg extra fuel to begin with? The helicopter I fly has to hold 60 mins of fuel (worst case) for weather, this equals 240kg. I think that there is more to this story.

As for using standard passenger weights, search for CAAP 235. It has a table that gives standard weights depending on seating capacity of aircraft. Keep in mind that this is an 'Advisory Publication' so an operator may have another system in their Operations Manual.

 

[docjames]

Do you still receive the offered compensation if you're "chosen" rather than volunteered?

 

[munitalP]

Whilst it seems a no news story... I am astounded that the weight of 2 pax can make such a difference.... That said.... Maybe a good incentive to go to weight watchers before a big trip.... PA announcement "it's going to be a big storm so we need two fat ones or three skinny ones....."

So does this mean they estimate weight of pax on boarding ? Or does the plane actually have a way of measuring the weight on board? Maybe they could check the weight of some of the "carry on" luggage that some pax seem to think is acceptable.... Seriously... If your second piece of carry on is your "handbag" and it has it's own set of wheels... Then off you go... Your voted off the island... Bring your torch to tribal council... Your going home...

A pilot mate of mine said that all modern AC have load cells. So simply put - following the rules, if the MAX take off weight is xx_ kg and you are xx_.01 kg, it is simply a matter of off loading until the xx_ is met on the weight system.

Possibly too simplified and a pilot of a modern AC could explain better. I would also be devastated to find that that DJ flight was carrying freight and they chose to offload PAX.

Again with the smoke and mirrors of no news reporting, theres more to this story than we are told... typical

 

[notmensa]

Do you still receive the offered compensation if you're "chosen" rather than volunteered?

We were told that pax who were involuntarily offloaded would receive the same compensation.

 

[MelUser]

THis does sound bizarre - perhaps taking some magazines or whatever else would have been better.

 

[LiamR]

I've been on flights where just a handful of PAX need to be offloaded due to weight issues. From what I've been told...

If you choose to be offloaded, you are refunded double what you paid in a credit. F&B vouchers, and put on the next flight.

If you aren't given a choice to be offloaded, then its the same as above, only in cash.

Maybe its changed, I'm not sure.

If I was that captain having trouble offloading the two pax I would have said "Sir, its your choice, if wel leave with you onboard, theres a chance we may crash. You choose" Usually shuts them up.

 

[Bundy Bear]

Maybe this is an Australian thing, I guess we are so not used to airlines needing volunteers because of over sells or weight and balance issues.

Did the cabin crew not promote the deal to all the passengers, yes I am sure it will upset the start of your holiday but if you are being offered a lot of money to go on a flight the next day, why wouldn't you take it.

But in this case, a refund of your ticket price plus some cash maybe wasn't high enough.

It also sounds like the announcement was done very late, almost like the flight was boarded and then the pilots realise they were too heavy during their calculations.

Sounds like the Virgin Blue staff offering the compensation could not up the deal and now they have this bad press, and now they look like a bad airline.

Hopefully Virgin Blue change some of their policies in offering compensation, which I think there is a minimum they need to provide but they really need up the offer and the sales pitch.

 

[anat0l]

If I was that captain having trouble offloading the two pax I would have said "Sir, its your choice, if wel leave with you onboard, theres a chance we may crash. You choose" Usually shuts them up.

Nah, I don't think that'd work. One argument they'd prop up again is simply, "Well, why not offload that person," and perhaps point to a random fat person (and in Australia, that ain't difficult) - actually, they don't have to be fat, they just have to point to someone apart from themselves.


Better that DJ has a compensation policy for these situations. REX doesn't really have one although they seem to tend to offload checked baggage rather than people. For example, my last REX experience we were about 70kg or so overweight. Check-in clerk told us before boarding that they had to ask volunteers to have their checked bags flown on the next flight and couriered to them for free; pax in transit at destination were considered last. It took some gingerly slow volunteering from the pax, 2 PA calls and about 30 odd minutes before we were in the right weight to fly. At least they didn't have to resort to "let's throw off some random bags 'cos no one's volunteering".

 

[docjames]

I would also be devastated to find that that DJ flight was carrying freight and they chose to offload PAX.

I'd say in some cases (not necessarily this one), the freight generates more profit than some of the pax.

 

[djfuzz]

Should've struck a deal with QF and got them to carry some of the luggage / freight part of the way - they must have had plenty of free volume / weight thanks to all the bags that didn't leave with their flights on Friday!

Seem to remember a news article about this recently, but saw it on FT in any case:
$600 Vouchers for being involuntarily bumped - FlyerTalk Forums

I was once offered US$400 at check-in to take the next flight from JFK-LHR on UA (way back when). Would have taken it for sure were I not meeting someone coming off a QF flight at JFK without the benefit of mobile / smart phones to advise in advance. It's a fine balance if you've got somewhere to be / are starting a holiday, but I'm quite surprised no one at all out of a full aircraft was unwilling - as noted above, perhaps the nature of the compensation was undersold.

 

[JohnK]

There is nothing wrong with "involuntary denied boarding" until it happens to you!

Wouldn't it have been much easier to off-load either some luggage (yes I know some of us would suffer for a day or so but big deal), or freight, or a food cart, or a drinks cart, or duty free for sale, or newspapers/magazines etc? Why be logical? Let's off-load 2 passengers so we can ruin their holiday....

"We touched down in Hobart and it's freezing cold, I'm wearing shorts and thongs and then Jetstar casually informs us that our luggage isn't there," Mr Arundel said. "It's disgusting really. It totally ruined the first day of our holiday."

I am sorry to sound nasty but if you are going to HBA this time of the year and you are travelling in shorts and thongs then you deserve to freeze.

 

[oz_mark]

There is nothing wrong with "involuntary denied boarding" until it happens to you!

Wouldn't it have been much easier to off-load either some luggage (yes I know some of us would suffer for a day or so but big deal), or freight, or a food cart, or a drinks cart, or duty free for sale, or newspapers/magazines etc? Why be logical? Let's off-load 2 passengers so we can ruin their holiday....

While I would hope that the offloaded PAX were adequatley compensated, I do wonder how easy these alternatives are to implement. I mean, how do you actually account for all those bits and bobs in calculating an aircraft weight? DO they even figure in the calculation used for take off weight? I am suspecting not - and removing a drinks cart would result in getting the same answer.

 

[farstar]

I hope they were compensated very well and not just flight vouchers.
If you are bumped from a flight that is not to your home port then you would need to cancel or change hotel bookings and/or transfers and/or tours, insurance may cover some but would it cover you if you volunteered and it would be a big hassle? Guess it depends on the policy.
I know as it was to Bali not likely but in other cases onward flights could also be involved.
So I hope these sort of things remain rare in Australia.

 

[casanovawa]

Its probably a greater issue if you are flying overseas where there may only be one or two flights a day, and so missing one flight you need to wait till the whole next day, than between Melb-Syd etc where the next flight is maybe 30-45 minutes away, so the compensation should be greater for the first than the second (and yes VBs level of compensation does go up in grades)... If flying between Aust cities i would take the extra credits and all for a small wait, if flying to Bali to potentially meet up with friends and all i would be loathe too and the compensation would have to be much greater...

But all up with a few Tiger flights grounded, Qantas/J*s baggage woes and this VB incident, really hasn't been a first class Easter weekend for any of the airlines....

 

[JohnK]

While I would hope that the offloaded PAX were adequatley compensated, I do wonder how easy these alternatives are to implement. I mean, how do you actually account for all those bits and bobs in calculating an aircraft weight? DO they even figure in the calculation used for take off weight? I am suspecting not - and removing a drinks cart would result in getting the same answer.

Not an easy question answer but the decision to off-load 2 passengers is quite confusing and does not make any sense the way it has been reported.

How much extra weight did they need available? How much do 2 random passengers (who happen to check in last) weigh? You and I are not going to weigh the same as samh004 and karens!

To me it sounds like there something missing from this story....

 

[Moopere]

This all sounds awfully suspicious to me.

Firstly, I can't believe that the engineering tolerance for a successful flight in the normal range of weather patterns is so fine that 200KG or so will make any difference. What does a small jet weigh fully fueled and loaded? 250 tonnes or so right?

Secondly, god forbid if they had taken off with the extra two passengers then, mid way through the flight got a late change of weather warning..... what would happen then? Call for volunteers to jump out a port hole?