Difference in Worlds longest flight times

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tuppaware

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Qantas syd-dfw longest B747 flight.
Qantas Dallas-Fort Worth flights | The world's longest 747 route

This got me looking on Wikipedia - the four top flights by distance-
SIN-ERK - 18hr 50min - 15,345 km
SIN-LAX - 17hr 20min - 14,114 km
SYD-DFW - 15hr 25min - 13,804 km
JNB-ATL - 17hr 05min - 13,582 km

The times don't match the distance. For example the Delta JNB-ATL is 17 hours for the same distance of Syd-Dfw.. Confused why?
 
Qantas syd-dfw longest B747 flight.
Qantas Dallas-Fort Worth flights | The world's longest 747 route

This got me looking on Wikipedia - the four top flights by distance-
SIN-ERK - 18hr 50min - 15,345 km
SIN-LAX - 17hr 20min - 14,114 km
SYD-DFW - 15hr 25min - 13,804 km
JNB-ATL - 17hr 05min - 13,582 km

The times don't match the distance. For example the Delta JNB-ATL is 17 hours for the same distance of Syd-Dfw.. Confused why?

Could be a maximum speed difference between the 777 mach 0.83 and 747 of mach 0.85.. not sure about the figures though and the difference in time
 
Could be a maximum speed difference between the 777 mach 0.83 and 747 of mach 0.85.. not sure about the figures though and the difference in time

They wouldn't always travel at this speed though?
I thought there was a line margin where increase in speed doesn't make much difference.
 
SYD-DFW has substantial prevailing tailwinds. At operating height (11Km+) that can sometimes be over 200kph.

These winds generally flow West to East.

JNB-ATL is basically the opposite and is fighting these winds, so it generally takes longer.

Great Circle Mapper
 
Wind will be the biggest difference. A headwind makes a lot of difference. And if you do the maths, it never actually balances out over the two directions.

Speed...well a 747 cruises at up to .87. Not sure about the 777 but I think it's about .02 slower. Most Airbus are slower still, and I think the 340 is around .81. The A380 is generally around .85. For what its worth, maximum speed in RVSM airspace is .90. Of the big airliners, only the 747 can go that fast, but the fuel burn is prohibitive. (As an aside, the aircraft actual limit is .92, but it takes maximum continuous thrust to achieve around .91 in level flight).

On the busy air routes the speeds tend to be affected by ATC issues, so that the 747s are running a bit slower than they would like, and the others a little faster. The .82-.85 range is most common. In rough figures, at altitude a mach difference of .01 will equate to a speed difference of about 6 knots, so over roughly 15 hours, a .03 difference will translate to around 30 minutes of advantage for the faster aircraft.

Other things to consider are ETOPs. The 747 is largely unrestricted by route choice, whereas a big twin (or even the 340), may need to fly a longer route to remain within fixed distances from a landing field. That's why the QF flight time to South Africa was about two hours faster than VOz...the rules didn't allow a 777 to go as far south.

Altitude affects cruise mach choice. If you are held below the planned altitude, you may slow up a bit to save some of the fuel. Some aircraft are more sensitive to others with regard to being stuck at the wrong altitude. If you need to go higher than planned, then it varies with type...the 747 may go a bit higher if you run a bit faster, whilst the 767 and 380 will generally give you a higher max alt a bit slower. Flying higher than the plan also includes a fuel burn penalty.

They wouldn't always travel at this speed though?
I thought there was a line margin where increase in speed doesn't make much difference.

Generally an aircraft is programmed to fly at a 'cost index'. Basically that's a trade off of fuel burn vs the time based costs, and it can vary as fuel prices fluctuate. But, the basic idea in any aircraft is that it will climb to its initial cruise altitude, then as it becomes lighter, the speed will slowly be reduced until it reaches the weight for the climb to the next altitude. Speed will be increased and the aircraft will then climb. At the new altitude the cycle will be repeated. So, in the 747, your initial cruise might be a .87, and it will then slowly reduce to .85...then you climb and do it again.

If you have a think about it, much of this explains why gaining time back after a delay is next to impossible. Running faster than the plan costs fuel...ultimately lots of it. But, if I had enough, and ran about .02 faster than the plan from (say) Singapore to London, I'd save about 16 minutes. But, one run around the holding pattern will cost me 7 minutes...so, in general ATC will throw away any saving you have made. Plus, of course, the fuel required to go that fast, for that long, will almost certainly eat all of your reserves. It's easy (within limits) to lose time, but almost impossible to get a reasonable amount back. On a short sector, say Melbourne to Sydney, it's a waste to even try, but if you must, then the trick is normally to go quite low (about F280) at max mach number. Fuel burn is horrific, but it may make the difference between making a curfew or not.
 
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What is also illustrative is the differences between the directions.

So on these routes:
SIN-EWR: 18:55 EWR-SIN: 18:40
SIN-LAX: 16:30, LAX-SIN: 17:25
SYD-DFW:15:25, DFW-BNE:16:00(and shorter distance)
ATL-JNB:15:50, JNB-ATL 16:15

Now intiuitively you would expect the longest route to have the greatest variation, between inbound and outbound but if conditions right it travels eastwards in both outbound and return.
 
What is also illustrative is the differences between the directions.

So on these routes:
SIN-EWR: 18:55 EWR-SIN: 18:40
.

Doesn't this go over the pole (or at least quite north) in one direction, and catch the jetstreams in the other?

(subject to rather significant daily variations)
 
(subject to rather significant daily variations)

I think this is the key. I've caught SIN-EWR three times, first two basically SIN-NRT-ANC-YUL-EWR. Second SIN-NRT-YVR(straight across the pacific, not via alaska)-YYZ-EWR. Only done the other direction once, we travelled SIN-KEF-ARN-MOW-DEL-SIN (ie via Scandinavia). Have done JFK-HKG it was via the pole. Impressive.
 
EWR-HKG. CO Flight 99.

Airliners.net
Photos: Boeing 777-224/ER Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

0840406.jpg


This flights comes in at No. 11 on Wiki
Non-stop flight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Wind will be the biggest difference. A headwind makes a lot of difference. And if you do the maths, it never actually balances out over the two directions.

Speed...well a 747 cruises at up to .87. Not sure about the 777 but I think it's about .02 slower. Most Airbus are slower still, and I think the 340 is around .81. The A380 is generally around .85. For what its worth, maximum speed in RVSM airspace is .90. Of the big airliners, only the 747 can go that fast, but the fuel burn is prohibitive. (As an aside, the aircraft actual limit is .92, but it takes maximum continuous thrust to achieve around .91 in level flight).

On the busy air routes the speeds tend to be affected by ATC issues, so that the 747s are running a bit slower than they would like, and the others a little faster. The .82-.85 range is most common. In rough figures, at altitude a mach difference of .01 will equate to a speed difference of about 6 knots, so over roughly 15 hours, a .03 difference will translate to around 30 minutes of advantage for the faster aircraft.

Other things to consider are ETOPs. The 747 is largely unrestricted by route choice, whereas a big twin (or even the 340), may need to fly a longer route to remain within fixed distances from a landing field. That's why the QF flight time to South Africa was about two hours faster than VOz...the rules didn't allow a 777 to go as far south.

Altitude affects cruise mach choice. If you are held below the planned altitude, you may slow up a bit to save some of the fuel. Some aircraft are more sensitive to others with regard to being stuck at the wrong altitude. If you need to go higher than planned, then it varies with type...the 747 may go a bit higher if you run a bit faster, whilst the 767 and 380 will generally give you a higher max alt a bit slower. Flying higher than the plan also includes a fuel burn penalty.



Generally an aircraft is programmed to fly at a 'cost index'. Basically that's a trade off of fuel burn vs the time based costs, and it can vary as fuel prices fluctuate. But, the basic idea in any aircraft is that it will climb to its initial cruise altitude, then as it becomes lighter, the speed will slowly be reduced until it reaches the weight for the climb to the next altitude. Speed will be increased and the aircraft will then climb. At the new altitude the cycle will be repeated. So, in the 747, your initial cruise might be a .87, and it will then slowly reduce to .85...then you climb and do it again.

If you have a think about it, much of this explains why gaining time back after a delay is next to impossible. Running faster than the plan costs fuel...ultimately lots of it. But, if I had enough, and ran about .02 faster than the plan from (say) Singapore to London, I'd save about 16 minutes. But, one run around the holding pattern will cost me 7 minutes...so, in general ATC will throw away any saving you have made. Plus, of course, the fuel required to go that fast, for that long, will almost certainly eat all of your reserves. It's easy (within limits) to lose time, but almost impossible to get a reasonable amount back. On a short sector, say Melbourne to Sydney, it's a waste to even try, but if you must, then the trick is normally to go quite low (about F280) at max mach number. Fuel burn is horrific, but it may make the difference between making a curfew or not.

Why is the A340 (ETOPS? - But it has 4 engines ) restricted so it can't fly too far from a divert field?
 
Why is the A340 (ETOPS? - But it has 4 engines ) restricted so it can't fly too far from a divert field?

It's not. The A345 flies one of, if not the longest, routes in the world (SIN-EWR). Other A430s 200, 300 & 600 are only restricted by range.
 
The 340, at least in its original incarnation, was simply an A330 with two extra (tiny) engines. No extra hydraulics, bleed, generators or oxygen. The rules may not have ultimately been applied to it, but it was certainly little more than an attempt to circumvent the rules without actually installing the equipment that four engined aircraft would normally have.

This ultimately led to LROPs (http://www.scribd.com/doc/27188836/Revision-of-Rules-for-Etops-and-Lrops). There's a curious comment in there to the effect that the minima will be based on CAT II ops, as they expect the aircraft to still have that capability after whatever happens to force the diversion. It's a curious comment, because in the case of the Airbus, it's surprising just how little is required before it loses all of it's fancy control laws, and the autopilot and flight directors seem to be the first things to fail after any problem. For what it's worth, neither QF 30, 32, or 72 were capable of an automatic landing.....

On any aircraft that carries fuel in the tail, and which does not burn it immediately after take off (the 747 burns it straight away, but the 380 will hold it there for much of the flight), there will be a c of g based time limit in some of the emergency procedures. In the case of the 380, the right failure will give you a situation in which you must land within 4 hours. So, the upshot is that you can have supposedly unrestricted aircraft, in which any number of checklist items will contain landing time limits.
 
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